Embedding Sn into An+1 and the Limitations: A Closer Look

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Discussion Overview

The discussion focuses on the embedding of the symmetric group Sn into the alternating group An+1, exploring the limitations and conditions under which such embeddings can or cannot occur. The conversation involves theoretical considerations and mathematical reasoning without reaching definitive conclusions.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation, Debate/contested, Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states they can embed Sn into An+2 but seeks to demonstrate that Sn cannot be embedded into An+1 without using Lagrange's Theorem.
  • Another participant proposes a homomorphism φ:An+1→Sm based on the action of An+1 on cosets of Sn, indicating that this implies n must be odd.
  • This second participant argues that for n > 4, the simplicity of An+1 leads to a contradiction regarding divisibility, suggesting that S3 cannot be embedded into A4.
  • A third participant notes that no knowledge of cosets is assumed in the discussion, indicating a desire for accessibility in the explanation.
  • A final participant requests additional tips, indicating ongoing uncertainty or need for clarification.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the methods and assumptions involved in proving the embedding limitations, with no consensus reached on a definitive approach or conclusion.

Contextual Notes

The discussion involves assumptions about group actions and divisibility that are not fully resolved, particularly regarding the implications of simplicity in An+1 and the conditions under which embeddings are considered.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in group theory, particularly those exploring the properties of symmetric and alternating groups, may find this discussion relevant.

Coca_Cola
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NOT HOMEWORK.

I know how to embed Sn into An+2, just with the extra transposition, etc...

But how to show it can not be embedded into An+1. We don't have the extra transposition.

Using Lagrange's Theorem, we can say when n+1 is odd, then n! does not divide (n+1)!/2 therefore a subgroup of order n! can not exist in An+1.

However, we must also not use Lagrange's Theorem.

Any help?

Thank you.
 
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suppose we had such an embedding.

consider the action of An+1 on cosets of Sn.

this gives us a homomorphism φ:An+1→Sm,

where m = [An+1:Sn] = (n+1)!/(n!2) = (n+1)/2.

note that this forces n to be odd.

if n > 4, then the simplicity of An+1 forces (n+1)!/2 to be a divisor of m!

writing k = (n+1)/2, we have that:

(2k)! ≤ 2(k!), which is untrue if k ≥ 2, thus when n ≥ 3, and a fortiori when n > 4.

so it suffices to prove that S3 cannot be embedded into A4.

(note the theorem is FALSE for n = 1, as S1 is trivial).
 
Good answer!

However, no knowledge of cosets is assumed.
 
If anyone has any tips, it would be very much appreciated.
 

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