Energy transfer with current in a dielectric

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the mechanisms of energy transfer when an electric current flows through a dielectric compared to a conductor. Participants explore theoretical aspects of energy propagation, the behavior of dielectrics under different conditions, and the implications of dielectric breakdown.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that energy transfer in dielectrics occurs similarly to conductors, primarily through fields rather than charge movement, especially below a certain threshold.
  • Others argue that once the dielectric reaches its breakdown threshold, it behaves like a conductor, allowing continuous charge flow and altering energy transfer dynamics.
  • One participant notes that energy propagates as electromagnetic waves in the space between conductors and that the presence of a dielectric modifies the electric field distribution and energy propagation characteristics.
  • Another participant explains that within a dielectric, charge displacement occurs elastically, leading to the concept of displacement current, which differs from conduction current.
  • Concerns are raised about energy flow during dielectric breakdown, with a participant indicating that breakdown creates an ionized path, effectively turning the dielectric into a resistor, which affects energy propagation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the behavior of dielectrics under various conditions, particularly regarding energy transfer mechanisms and the implications of dielectric breakdown. No consensus is reached on these points.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the need for specific circuit schematics to fully analyze energy propagation during dielectric failure and the dependence on the definitions of current types (displacement vs. conduction). Unresolved mathematical steps related to energy transfer mechanisms are also noted.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying electromagnetism, materials science, or electrical engineering, particularly in contexts involving dielectrics and energy transfer mechanisms.

mcdonneldouglas
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TL;DR
Will the situation with energy transfer at current flow in a dielectric be similar to the case with a conductor?
It is known that when an electric current flows through a conductor, energy transfer occurs not by the movement of electrons, but by means of a field near the conductor.

In this case, will the situation with energy transfer when current flows in a dielectric be similar to the case with a conductor?
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Maybe I am not fully understanding your question, but I'll try to answer it.
As far as I understand it depends on the charge/current you put on the dielectric. If you put a current on the capacity that is below the break through threshold, then the molecules will only slightly adjust themselves to your current and act like an insulator, so energy transfer should happen via a field in your picture, not charges.

Once you cross the threshold, the dielectric will behave like a conductor. So yes, in both cases you get energy transfer via fields.
 
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Welcome to PF.

Energy propagates as EM waves in the space between ideal conductors. If that space contains an ideal dielectric, the energy will propagate through that dielectric, and will remain outside the conductors.

The presence of a dielectric will change the electric field distribution, so the impedance, and the velocity factor, of energy propagation will change slightly, when compared to free space.

Any electric or magnetic field that enters an imperfect conductor will be lost as heat in the conductor. The electric field that propagates through an imperfect dielectric, may heat the dielectric, and so also become an energy loss.
 
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mcdonneldouglas said:
In this case, will the situation with energy transfer when current flows in a dielectric be similar to the case with a conductor?
The electric charge within a dielectric, cannot flow continuously, but instead the charge is displaced elastically, in proportion to the electric field. That makes a capacitor. The virtual current in a dielectric is called a displacement current, to distinguish it from a conduction current, where a continuous flow of charge carriers is possible.

Energy can be guided and delivered to a port without involving conductors. An EM wave can be refracted or guided within a dielectric by local changes in the dielectric constant. Optic fibres are an example. Without controlled geometric changes in the dielectric constant, the energy would not be guided, but would be radiated in all directions.
 
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Baluncore said:
The electric charge within a dielectric, cannot flow continuously, but instead the charge is displaced elastically, in proportion to the electric field. That makes a capacitor. The virtual current in a dielectric is called a displacement current, to distinguish it from a conduction current, where a continuous flow of charge carriers is possible.

Energy can be guided and delivered to a port without involving conductors. An EM wave can be refracted or guided within a dielectric by local changes in the dielectric constant. Optic fibres are an example. Without controlled geometric changes in the dielectric constant, the energy would not be guided, but would be radiated in all directions.
Thank you for your answer!
So, can I ask you, which way(s) the energy flows during the dielectric's electrical breakdown when there actually is a continuous flow of charge?
 
mcdonneldouglas said:
So, can I ask you, which way(s) the energy flows during the dielectric's electrical breakdown when there actually is a continuous flow of charge?
If you want to study the energy propagation when the dielectric fails, you will need to specify a circuit schematic, and show the capacitor that will break down.

When a dielectric fails, it becomes an ionised path, a resistor. The energy then stops propagating along the transmission line, and is either reflected back to the source, or heats the dielectric in the region of breakdown.
 

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