Entropy of the last scattering surface and today's universe?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of entropy in relation to the last scattering surface of the universe and its current state. Participants explore the implications of temperature and density changes from the early universe to the present, questioning how entropy can be said to increase despite what appears to be a more ordered state today.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about how entropy can increase when the current universe is cooler and less dense than the last scattering surface, which was a dense plasma at approximately 3000K.
  • One participant suggests that gravitationally-bound systems, like planets and stars, have higher entropy than the diffuse gas clouds they originated from, although this claim is contested.
  • Another participant argues that the evolution from a gas cloud to a gravitationally bound system is not an isolated process, implying that external factors must be considered in entropy calculations.
  • There is mention of John Baez's discussion as a valuable resource for understanding these concepts, indicating that the topic may require deeper exploration.
  • Participants acknowledge the importance of considering outgoing radiation and heat loss in the context of entropy changes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the relationship between entropy and the transition from a plasma state to the current universe. There are competing views regarding the entropy of gravitationally-bound systems and the implications of the cooling process.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexity of entropy in cosmological contexts, including the need to consider both matter configuration and radiation effects. There are unresolved questions about the exact nature of entropy changes during the evolution of the universe.

Astrotek
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Hi,
I am quite confused about followed question,
I think scientist think the last scattering surface was dense plasma at the temperature of 3000K. If the today's universe much cooler and less dense then "the last scattering surface" how can anyone says entropy increased by time? Isn't universe now have more order than a plasma phase?

Note: I am sorry If I couldn't make good sentences to explain my problem, it is almost 2 am and I just woken up and this question just bugs me a lot. I'll really appreciate if someone explains it.
 
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The universe is much bigger now than it was at the time of last scattering.
 
Astrotek said:
Hi,
I am quite confused about followed question,
I think scientist think the last scattering surface was dense plasma at the temperature of 3000K. If the today's universe much cooler and less dense then "the last scattering surface" how can anyone says entropy increased by time? Isn't universe now have more order than a plasma phase?
In what way do you think the universe now has more "order"?

If you are talking about gravitationally-bound systems such as planets and stars, then those systems have higher entropy than the diffuse gas clouds they collapsed from. While the precise details of how much entropy complicated systems have is unknown, we do know that the end point of matter contained within a black hole is the maximum-entropy configuration that amount of matter can have.

If you just mean the cooling of the plasma into a gas, that process is largely adiabatic (as in, entropy didn't change much).
 
kimbyd said:
If you are talking about gravitationally-bound systems such as planets and stars, then those systems have higher entropy than the diffuse gas clouds they collapsed from.
This is actually not true. However, the point is that the evolution from a gas cloud to a gravitationally bound system is not an isolated one.

John Baez’s discussion on this is well worth a read.
 
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Orodruin said:
John Baez’s discussion on this is well worth a read.

Well I got one more question now, but it was fun to read.

I am still thinking about other answers and I'd like to hear if there is any other thoughts on this subject.
 
Orodruin said:
This is actually not true. However, the point is that the evolution from a gas cloud to a gravitationally bound system is not an isolated one.

John Baez’s discussion on this is well worth a read.
That's fair. It does make sense that you'd have to not only consider the configuration of the matter, but also of the outgoing radiation, which represents a large loss of heat for the system. That does bring things into clearer focus. Certainly the entropy of the observable universe is not decreased by this process regardless.
 
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