Europe not as progressive as we Americans think it is?

  • #1
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Pretty ridiculous.
 
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  • #2
Pengwuino
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Pretty par for the course from what everyone I know who has spent time in Europe says about racism in Europe. Plus it's soccer... I think that sport makes people go ... pardon the wording, ape$&#*.
 
  • #3
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Football always attracts racists/nutters, no matter what country you come from.

Spainish fans are probably the worst offender for pure racism.
English fans is right up there for hooliganism and beating up other teams indescriminately.

I'm not too big into football, but there are problems like this in every country.

Racism of a few, and problems within a sport does not indicate a lack of progression of a continent.
 
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  • #4
cristo
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Pretty ridiculous.
Is there anything that you don't sensationalise? Instead of this thread being proof of "Europe not [being] as progressive as Americans think it is", it is in fact proof of "Some European footballers and/or supporters are racist". I wouldn't have thought this is something that Americans were unaware of, since there are clearly racist/sexist/homophobic people living in the US: do you all really believe that there are places in the world where such people do not exist?
 
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  • #5
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It seems the ones that so very often use the word racism do not know the definition of the word racism.
 
  • #6
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Was that just a general statement, or was it directed at someone?
 
  • #7
f95toli
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No offense, but I must say I think find it quite annoying when people talk about "Europe" in cases like this. Europe is no a country, it is a continent with (approximately) 50 countries where something like 700 million people of various creeds and colour live.
My point is that when it comes to racism etc you can' really compare the situation in Stockholm and the South Ossetian countryside (to use two extremes).

But yes, racism has always been a problem in football although the situation seems to have improved over the past few years, some hefty fines and penalties such as forcing teams to play without an audience has helped a lot. Open racism during matches is quite rare in most countries. That said, the there are still problems in certain countries such a Spain, probably because the penalties there are too low (although problems over the last year or so seem to have forced a clampdown)

Part of the problem is that football has always attracted extremists. One example being the the fights that used to take place between supporters of Celtic and Rangers in the Scottish league, both teams come from Glasgow but from different parts of the city: one team the "representing" the protestants and the other the catholic parts of the city.

There are many examples of groups that call themselves "supporter" that are in reality right-wing extremists who never actually watch the game (although that is partly because most of them are banned from the arenas). But still travel around the world fighting with "supporters" from other teams and causing trouble.
 
  • #8
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Well xxChrisxx, it's directed at a lot of people, but since you felt obliged to step forward, it does appears that you do not know the definition of the word racism nor how to spell Spanish.
 
  • #9
cristo
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Well xxChrisxx, it's directed at a lot of people, but since you felt obliged to step forward, it does appears that you do not know the definition of the word racism
dictionary.com said:
rac⋅ism  [rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
I'd say that the "racism" shown in some football games is that defined by 1. or 3. or both.

nor how to spell Spanish.
Typos happen.
 
  • #10
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Well xxChrisxx, it's directed at a lot of people, but since you felt obliged to step forward, it does appears that you do not know the definition of the word racism nor how to spell Spanish.
So you firmly believe that some people throwing a banana at a black person (a demeaning gesture to indicate they are a monkey) and being intimidating becuase they are black, is not racist?

That firmly sits in with definition three.

And yes I can spell Spanish, it originally said Spain was racist. However thats incorrect, the country itsself can't be so I changed it in an edit. If poking at someones spelling, that can easily be attributed to a typo, is really the best you can come up wiith then i'm afraid you need to try harder.


EDIT: Also dont try to dig yourself out of this by making some semanic distinction between ethnicity or race. I'm sure you can also find some dictionary definintions that make the distincion between racism and racial hatred. Both are pretty weak arguments based purely on semanics.
 
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  • #11
do you all really believe that there are places in the world where such people do not exist?
Sadly there really are people who believe that all of the ideological problems here in the US are virtually nonexistent in other countries.

No offense, but I must say I think find it quite annoying when people talk about "Europe" in cases like this. Europe is no a country, it is a continent with (approximately) 50 countries where something like 700 million people of various creeds and colour live.
People do the same with the US. This is a very large country and people don't seem to realize just how varied the culture and ideology is here. "Generalization" seems to happen everywhere.
 
  • #12
Monique
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I am not particularly interested in sports, but I can tell you that UEFA and FIFA have adopted a zero-tolerance resolution since 2006 (the Code of Ethics). I believe the club can be fined for 15000 pounds and be forced to play one or more future games behind closed doors (without the supporters) if supporters make racist slurs, also I've heard of cases where the identity of individuals was tracked down and they permanently lost access to soccer stadiums.

Furthermore I must agree with many of the posters that defining a continent by the actions of a very specialized group of people is really backward. It's like defining the population of the American continent by the living standards of the Mormon population.
 
  • #13
D H
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To answer the question raised in the title of the thread, " Europe not as progressive as we Americans think it is?" Where did you ever get the idea that Europe (or practically any old World country) is progressive when it comes to racism?

Regarding the specific issue of football: Football has had a problem with racism in Europe, and widely across Europe, for quite some time. 2000 2003 2003 2004 2005 2006

The problem was not going away, particularly in Europe. FIFA adopted its "Say no to racism" campaign in 2006. The primary target of this campaign was and remains Europe.
 
  • #14
Moonbear
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Perhaps the OP thought racism had been obliterated in Europe, but please don't included the rest of us "we Americans" in that assumption of ignorance.
 
  • #15
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If you want to see the true colors of people go to a sporting event. It brings out all classes of the population. Sure the people who are doing these highly racists acts might be a minority or extremists, but the fact that they constantly get away with displaying things like so and so player needs to "go eat bananas and peanuts" or waving around Nazi flags means these acts are by in large tolerated. These acts aren't just in Spain and Italy, blatant examples of racism at soccer matches is all over Europe from England, Germany, Belgium, and France to Croatia, Poland, and Serbia. Does racism exist in the US? Certainly, it was huge part of our history. However, the level of overt level racism displayed at football matches in Europe would definitely be NOT be tolerated by the general US public. European countries might have the greenest economies, health care coverage for all of its citizens, and things like highly efficient mass public transportation, but all of that means nothing if hatred against certain groups of people because of the color of their skin is tolerated. Human rights are fundamental. What do US minority players who play in Europe have to say about the issue? Here's what:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/soccer/worldcup/2006-06-01-intolerance-cup_x.htm

For the U.S. team's African-American players who grew up in what is largely a white, suburban sport at home, the blatant prejudice overseas has been eye opening.

"In America, we don't have that. No one is saying racial things at you," says U.S. midfielder DaMarcus Beasley, who plays in the Dutch League for PSV Eindhoven. "It's pretty bad in Spain, some in Italy. That goes with the territory."

In a European Champions League qualifier against Red Star Belgrade in Serbia and Montenegro in 2004, Beasley was welcomed rudely. When he touched the ball, he says, the fans whistled, booed and made monkey noises. At road games in the Netherlands, Beasley says, he faces similar treatment at times, which puzzles him because many of his team's opponents also have players of color.

Cory Gibbs, a black defender who had to withdraw from the U.S. team last week because of a knee injury, says he faced discrimination while playing for St. Pauli in Germany in 2003 and 2004. "My experiences were when we played in the east part of Germany," he says. "It's more direct and blunt; it's out there. In the U.S., things aren't as direct."

He says when he tried to enter restaurants in eastern Germany, he sometimes was told, "This is a private party. You're not welcomed."
 
  • #16
f95toli
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If you want to see the true colors of people go to a sporting event.
First of all, these aren't just "sporting event".it is very unlikely that you would see this kind of behaviour at any other sport. You need to realize that football to many people is not really a "sport", it is a lifestyle where their whole lives is organized around "supporting" their teams and team loyalty is often inherited, in some cases there are very strong similarities to religion.
Unfortunately some of these people are extremists of various types (what kind depends on the club). The kind of person who would join KKK or similar in the US would probably join a "supporter club" in many countries in Europe and some of these groups have close links to neo-nazi organizations etc. The point is that the people who behave like this at football games are often the worst examples of scum in each country; they are NOT ordinary sports fans. I don't think any sport in the US has anywhere near the social and political importance of football in many (but not all) European countries.

It is unfortunately true that football and social problems of various kinds have always been closely linked, I've already mentioned the religious conflicts between Rangers and Celtics fans but there are many other examples. Many of the people who participate in riots at various political summits are also known football hooligans; they travel around Europe looking for fights (many of them rarely watch the game; the police in most countries are good at keeping them at check so nowadays the fighting is often done at pre-arragned locations in e.g. a nearby city; nowhere near the match).
 
  • #17
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I think it's pretty crazy that it's almost the year 2010 and we still have to deal with racism. It's such a primitive mindset. With all the problems we have and how far humans have advanced in just about every aspect, the fact that people still make race an issue just boggles my mind.
Do people really think genocide is the future? There were people doing the Nazi salute in that video. That's unbelievable.
 
  • #18
Monique
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European countries might have the greenest economies, health care coverage for all of its citizens, and things like highly efficient mass public transportation, but all of that means nothing if hatred against certain groups of people because of the color of their skin is tolerated.
Several examples were given that it is not being tolerated, but you apparently choose to ignore that.
 
  • #19
cristo
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These acts aren't just in Spain and Italy, blatant examples of racism at soccer matches is all over Europe from England, Germany, Belgium, and France to Croatia, Poland, and Serbia.
How many football games have you been to in these countries where racism is openly allowed? In fact, since you mention England, have you ever been to a game where fans were racist towards the players and it was tolerated? I'd say you haven't especially because I know that when fans in Spain were racist towards players in the England national team when a friendly was played over there, the English FA stepped in, condoned it, and threatened that England would not play there again unless there was a promise that such racism was not permitted.

Of course, you think you can sit in your house, see a couple of clips and then extrapolate to statements that the entire European continent openly allows racism. You are being ignorant, and talking utter nonsense.
 
  • #20
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Europe has some racial (discrimination) problems. So does America, Asia, Africa, Australia, (and Antarctica :uhh:)

If it is tolerated or not, depends how media, people, and politicians see it.
 
  • #21
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I am European and I am racist against what stadiums transform (many) sport fans into : alcohol plus mass = brain failure. So yes, it appears that as a European, I have no shame claiming my prejudice.
 
  • #22
I am European and I am racist against what stadiums transform (many) sport fans into : alcohol plus mass = brain failure. So yes, it appears that as a European, I have no shame claiming my prejudice.
Sports fans are certainly another species.
 
  • #23
Monique
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I am European and I am racist against what stadiums transform (many) sport fans into : alcohol plus mass = brain failure. So yes, it appears that as a European, I have no shame claiming my prejudice.
But I sure do hope that as a European you don't identify yourself with hooligans :uhh:
 
  • #24
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But I sure do hope that as a European you don't identify yourself with hooligans :uhh:
Good question. I do not think I could ever act as a hooligan even against hooligans. Then again, I cannot know for sure, I was not never one of their victims.
 

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