A Experimental test of shrinking matter theory?

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Prof. Wetterich's theory suggests that rather than the universe expanding, atomic scales are shrinking due to interactions with a scalar "cosmon" field, making the expansion an apparent effect. He proposes that a test could involve measuring the distance between two satellites orbiting Earth, predicting a detectable increase in distance if atomic scales are indeed shrinking. However, many participants in the discussion argue that this theory has significant flaws and does not offer predictions that differ from standard cosmology. Critics emphasize that the model essentially redefines units without providing new testable outcomes, and they question how it accounts for phenomena like redshift and large-scale expansion. Overall, the theory remains contentious and lacks empirical support, leading to skepticism about its validity.
  • #31
PAllen said:
I think predictions match everywhere covered by both models, i.e. excluding the singularity of the standard model, which is not actually part of the manifold.

I don't think so. Since in the model in the paper, all curvature invariants are bounded, there must be a finite portion of the manifold in the standard cosmology model, a finite region "around" the singularity which is part of the manifold, where curvature invariants in the standard model exceed whatever bound there is in the model in the paper on those invariants. In that finite region, testable predictions will differ between the two models. The difference cannot be confined to just the singularity itself.

PAllen said:
If one brings in a theory of matter, and requires measurements to be made by material instruments, curvature invariants are no longer directly measurable.

That just means the actual measurable predictions will be of invariants associated with the matter, such as the energy density. Those will have to increase without bound in the standard model, but be bounded in the model described in the paper, so the same argument I made above applies to them.

PAllen said:
the same asymptotically infinite mutual acceleration can be achieved in asymtotically flat spacetime with asymptotically finite interaction force applied to asymptotically 0 masses.

No, this cannot duplicate tidal gravity, because the geodesics don't deviate. Tidal gravity is geodesic deviation; it is deviation of worldlines that have zero proper acceleration. Worldlines that deviate due to a mutual interaction force will have nonzero proper acceleration, and this will be a measurable difference.

PAllen said:
it is a change of geometry with corresponding change of matter fields to produce identical predictions.

I agree that this is what the paper appears to be claiming when it talks about a "field redefinition". I just don't think that claim is correct for the entire spacetime, for the reasons given above. But it may be correct for the region of spacetime in our actual universe that we have actually been able to observe up to now.
 
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  • #32
PeterDonis said:
No, this cannot duplicate tidal gravity, because the geodesics don't deviate. Tidal gravity is geodesic deviation; it is deviation of worldlines that have zero proper acceleration. Worldlines that deviate due to a mutual interaction force will have nonzero proper acceleration, and this will be a measurable difference.
I disagree. Geodesic deviation is the model of tidal gravity assuming it is purely geometric in origin. If its origin is only partly geometric, as the paper argues using the cosmon field, then tidal gravity is no longer defined by geodesic deviation. The only direct observable is convergence of particles with some initial state of motion. As long as you have a field that preserves the principle of equivalence, there need be no geometric analog. This seems similar to graviton theory on Minkowski space where you can treat the ‘real’ spacetime as flat, even though measurements are all consistent with the curved spacetime model.
 
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  • #33
PAllen said:
Geodesic deviation is the model of tidal gravity assuming it is purely geometric in origin. If its origin is only partly geometric, as the paper argues using the cosmon field, then tidal gravity is no longer defined by geodesic deviation.

I am not getting that from the paper, but I have not tried yet to go into great detail about the "field redefinition" that it is claiming to perform.
 
  • #34
PeterDonis said:
You are contradicting yourself in these two statements. The satellites are part of a gravitationally bound system, which means, by your first argument, that the round-trip light travel time between them as measured by our atomic clocks should not change.

OK - fair enough.

Imagine a massive hollow spherical shell out in space. Inside the metric is flat Minkowski space by the corollary to Birkhoff's theorem.

Imagine two spacecraft at rest inside the hollow shell measuring their separation distance using laser range finding techniques. To be more specific assume that the separation distance is measured between the centers of mass of the two spacecraft .

According to standard GR the spacecraft measure a constant separation distance even though the space outside the shell is expanding.

According to Wetterich's theory the space both inside and outside the shell is static. But his theory implies an increasing universal scalar field which causes all matter to shrink. Thus the hollow shell will shrink around its center of mass. The two spacecraft inside the shell will also shrink around their respective centers of mass. But the separation distance between the centers of mass of the two spacecraft should remain constant. As the atomic clocks used by the spacecraft are increasing in frequency this means that the spacecraft will measure an apparent increase in the separation distance.
 
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  • #35
When we talk about the universe expanding, we mean the ratio (galaxy distance/galaxy size) is increasing. We use the scale factor a(t) to represent this. Whether (galaxy distance is increasing) or (galaxy size is decreasing) is equivalent. All we know is the ratio.
 
  • #36
jcap said:
OK - fair enough.

Imagine...

You need to stop waving your hands and "imagining" things and start actually doing math, using the equations given in Wetterich's paper, if you want to keep constructing scenarios. This is not a case where you can just use your intuitions, because the whole point of the model in the paper is that it violates the intuitions that underlie the standard model of cosmology.
 
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  • #37
Moderator's note: Thread level changed to "A" since the proposed model under discussion requires that level of knowledge of the subject matter.
 
  • #38
jcap said:
Imagine...

As far as a response to my response is concerned, the shell and everything inside it is still a gravitationally bound system, whether "space is expanding" outside it or not, so both models--standard cosmology and Wetterich's model--predict the same observations for the shell and inside it.
 
  • #39
PAllen said:
The only direct observable is convergence of particles with some initial state of motion.

Yes, and that direct observable is what increases without bound as the Big Bang singularity is approached in the standard cosmology model. (In the standard cosmology model, the Ricci scalar ##R## basically corresponds to this observable, but the fact remains that the physical prediction of the standard cosmology model is a prediction about the observable.) So it is impossible for Wetterich's model to "represent the same physics" in that regime if it has no singularity, since "no singularity" means that the physical observable remains bounded.
 
  • #40
PAllen said:
If its origin is only partly geometric, as the paper argues using the cosmon field, then tidal gravity is no longer defined by geodesic deviation.

Ok, having looked at the paper some more, let me try to describe how this would have to work, based on the math in the paper.

In the standard cosmology model, the "spacetime geometry" term is ##R \sqrt{g}##, where ##R## is the Ricci scalar and ##g## is the determinant of the metric tensor. (I'm using the paper's notation, which does not appear to be concerned with the sign of ##g##; strictly speaking, the determinant ##g## is negative so the factor in the Lagrangian should be ##\sqrt{-g}## since that factor must be real, and that's how it will appear in most GR textbooks.)

In the paper's model, the corresponding term in the Lagrangian is ##\chi^2 R \sqrt{g}##, where ##\chi## is the "cosmon" field. So if we view ##R## and ##g## as describing, not the actual physical metric (the thing that describes distances and times measured with physical rods and clocks), but a "background" metric that is not directly observable, then the paper's description of the model as describing a static spacetime in which masses continually increase (because the "Planck mass" in the model continually increases with ##\chi##) makes sense, if we bear in mind that the "static spacetime" geometry is not the spacetime geometry that is directly observed; for example, the timelike geodesics of this background spacetime are not curves that describe the worldlines of objects with zero proper acceleration, and the curvature tensor derived from this background spacetime metric does not describe actual deviation of the worldlines of actual physical objects that have zero proper acceleration.

However, that then leaves the obvious question: what are the direct physical observables in the paper's model? As far as I can tell, this question is never directly addressed in the paper. We are never told, for example, how to describe the motion of a freely falling object--an object with actual, physical zero proper acceleration--in this model. What is its worldline? It isn't a geodesic of the "background" spacetime geometry, we know that. But we are never told what it is, except for the general statement that the model "represents the same physics" as standard cosmology. But if the model represents the same physics, then all physical observables should be the same, and that includes the physical observables that increase without bound as the Big Bang singularity is approached.

The paper's explanation of how the singularity gets removed is that the curvature scalar ##R## of the "background" spacetime geometry remains finite and bounded as ##t \rightarrow - \infty## (which corresponds to ##t \rightarrow 0## in the standard cosmology). But as we have just seen, that curvature scalar does not represent any physical observable. We are never told what, in the paper's model, does represent the relevant physical observable as ##t \rightarrow \infty## in the model, much less how such an observable remains finite and bounded--which, if the paper's claim that its model "represents the same physics" as standard cosmology is true, cannot be the case.

So I am still not convinced that the paper actually presents a solution that is free of physical singularities. As far as I can tell, the "field redefinition" trick just obfuscates the situation by making the unphysical "background" spacetime Ricci scalar stay finite and bounded, and then trying to ignore the fact that this scalar does not represent the actual relevant physical observable.
 
  • #41
PeterDonis said:
As far as a response to my response is concerned, the shell and everything inside it is still a gravitationally bound system, whether "space is expanding" outside it or not, so both models--standard cosmology and Wetterich's model--predict the same observations for the shell and inside it.

OK - I would be very interested in your response to the following idea to test a generic "shrinking matter" cosmology:

Imagine (sorry!) two massive similarly-charged objects at rest in space such that their gravitational attraction is exactly balanced by their electromagnetic repulsion.

The objects each have mass ##M##, charge ##Q## and their separation is ##d##.

Then in natural units (##\hbar = c = 4\pi\epsilon_0 = 1##, ##G = 1/M_P^2##) we have:
$$\frac{1}{M_P^2}\frac{M^2}{d^2}=\frac{Q^2}{d^2}$$
Therefore
$$\frac{M}{M_P}=Q$$
Clearly this equation does not change with the universal scale factor ##a(t)## if ##M \rightarrow M a(t)## and ##M_P \rightarrow M_P a(t)##.

Therefore I presume that the separation distance ##d## does not change and can be used as a reference to check whether atomic sizes do change.

Does this work?

P.S. I think the crucial difference between the scenario above and the gravitationally-bound orbit scenario in post #18 is that the bodies here have no angular momentum. An orbiting body has constant angular momentum ##L=mvr## ensuring that if ##m \propto a## then ##r \propto 1/a##. (In natural units angular momentum and velocity are dimensionless.)

Post #18: https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...f-shrinking-matter-theory.993768/post-6394052
 
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  • #42
jcap said:
I would be very interested in your response to the following idea to test a generic "shrinking matter" cosmology:

You can't test a "generic" cosmology. You have to test a well-defined mathematical model. You're not; you're just waving your hands and using intuitive reasoning that might or might not be valid for any mathematical model. You certainly have not shown that your intuitive reasoning is valid for the model described in the Wetterich paper.
 
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  • #43
The actual model referenced in the OP has been sufficiently discussed, and speculation is off topic. Thread closed.
 

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