Explaining the Massive Vector Bosons' Masses

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter khil_phys
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Bosons Vector
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the masses of massive vector bosons, specifically the W+ and Z0 bosons, and their relationship to the Higgs mechanism. Participants explore theoretical implications, experimental evidence, and the status of the Higgs boson within the framework of the standard model of particle physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that while the W+ and Z0 bosons have been experimentally identified with specific masses, the Higgs boson remains hypothetical and has not yet been discovered.
  • One participant explains the Higgs mechanism as a way for gauge bosons to acquire mass without breaking gauge symmetry, using an analogy involving a crowded room affecting movement.
  • Another participant argues that the Higgs mechanism is borrowed from condensed matter physics, suggesting that even if the Higgs boson does not exist as a fundamental particle, the mechanism could still be valid as an effective degree of freedom.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of not finding the Higgs boson, with some suggesting that the standard model would face challenges if the Higgs is not discovered, while others maintain that the theory has been successful in predicting the masses of the W and Z bosons.
  • One participant raises the idea that the Higgs mechanism could still hold even if the specific Higgs boson being searched for is not found, indicating a potential robustness of the theory.
  • Another participant introduces a mathematical analogy to illustrate how the Higgs particle might be an effective approximation at low energies, but could be replaced by a different model at higher energies.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of agreement and disagreement regarding the status and implications of the Higgs mechanism and the Higgs boson. While there is consensus on the experimental identification of the W and Z bosons, the existence and role of the Higgs boson remain contested and unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the theoretical and experimental challenges surrounding the Higgs boson, noting that the lack of direct evidence for the Higgs does not invalidate the successful predictions made by the standard model regarding the masses of the W and Z bosons.

khil_phys
Messages
93
Reaction score
0
"Massive" bosons

I just read in Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time" that particles of integer spin are the force-carrying ones, with no mass. Further on, he states that the massive vector bosons, namely W+, W- and Z0 are vector bosons with masses of around 100 GeV. He gives no explanation regard this phenomenon.
I looked up in Wikipedia and they say it has something to do with the Higgs mechanism. Can someone explain that to me?
 
Physics news on Phys.org


In gauge theories the symmetry of the theory is protected after quantization (gauge symmetry holds for the quantized theory); this guarantuess that the theory stays consistent, especially perturbatievely renormalizable. This is essentially the reasoning for all quantum field theories of the standard model of elementary particle physics.

Now we know that the weak force as a very short range which means that the gauge bosons mediating this force must be massive. But for massive gauge bosons all the nice features described above break down. So one needs a mechanism that the elementary gauge bosons can stay massles, but "behave as if they have a mass".

Assume you are a filmstar. You are slender and agile. Now unfortunately you are in a room which is crowded with fans, presse people and photographers. You are still slender but you will move as if would have a higher mass. That's what's happening in the Higgs mechanism. The crowd is replaced ba a so-called Higgs field (just another field with a particle, the Higgs-boson associated with it) which is always present, even in vacuum. Reducing it's field strength to zero would rise its energy which is quite unusual; usually lowering the field strength lowers the energy as well, but it can be modeled mathematically.

The interaction with this Higgs field generates masses for the gauge bosons w/o breaking gauge symmetry and spoiling renormalizibility of the theory.

But there is one problem: the Higgs boson hasn not been found so far. Both Tevatron and LHC experiments try to identify this last missing puzzle piece of the standard model.

For a more detailed description you may check the Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_mechanism
 


So at least for the moment, the theory is quite meta-physical.
 


khil_phys said:
So at least for the moment, the theory is quite meta-physical.
No, on the contrary; the theory is quite successful which means that there where numerous predictions over the decades which had been verified experimentally. It is possible to calculate the W- and Z-boson mass; these particles have been identified experimentally with correct mass and interaction strength. The Higgs is the only piece that is missing - but even for the Higgs there are indirect effects which allowed to restrict the allowed mass range.

But I agree, the standard model will be in trouble if the LHC does not find the Higgs.
 


This essentially means that the W and Z bosons of the weak interaction have been discovered, but the hypothetical Higgs boson hasn't been.

Do you mean to say that the Higgs mechanism is theoretically fool-proof, since we don't have any evidence supporting it's claim.
 


khil_phys said:
This essentially means that the W and Z bosons of the weak interaction have been discovered, but the hypothetical Higgs boson hasn't been.
Exactly.

khil_phys said:
Do you mean to say that the Higgs mechanism is theoretically fool-proof, since we don't have any evidence supporting it's claim.
I am not sure what you mean by that.

The Higgs-mechanism is "borrowed" from condensed matter physics where similar effects are well-known and allow us to describe numerous physical effects. The main difference is that here the boson is an effective degree of freedom, not a fundamental particle. In the standard model the Higgs particle is fundamental.

Of course the Higgs mechanism and therefore the standard model (as of today) can be falsified by showing (experimentally) that the supposed particle does not exist. If this would be the case we would still believe that something like the Higgs does exist as an effective degree of freedom, as a low-energy approximation, ... simply becuse many of its predictions are still correct (especially W- and Z-boson masses). Therefore we would throw away everything bt try to find new a new model in which there is no fundamental Higgs but from which something like a Higgs can be derived in certain (not all!) approximations (well below the Higgs mass we may still be allowed to do caclulations based on the Higgs, but closed to the Higgs mass the theory is repülaced by something else)
 


I think what he means is that even if there is no Higgs Boson of the type being searched for, the Higgs Mechanism would still have the potential to stand.
 


OK, this is what I expect too; the electro-weak sector of the SM is too successful to be completey wrong.
 


I get it. The theory supports the existence of Higgs boson, although it hasn't been found yet.
 
  • #10


Yes.

What I wanted to say is that the Higgs effect is "there" (the gauge bosons are massive and theory and experiment agree very well at the currently accessable energies) but the Higgs particle (as a fundamental paricle) may not exist.

Particles manifest themselves as poles in certain functions. Let's look the function 1/(1-x) for small x. One can extract the behaviour ~1/(1-x) and therefore derive the pole at x=1. But perhaps we should deal with a different function f(x)/(1-x) where f is nearly constant for small x (and therefore does not change the 1/(1-x) behaviour) but has a zero (!) at x=1. So going to x~1 one finds that the pole fades away.

In that sense the Higgs particle could be a very good approximation for small energies (small compared to its "mass"), but going to the Higgs mass scale it may look different as it is replaced by something different

[The same happened to the pion: in nuclear physics and for small energies in nucleon-nucleon scattering an approximation with massless pions as elementary particles works rather well; but at higher energies the quark substructure of the pion becomes important; there are differences, e.g. it has nothing to do with the pion mass scale, but it may be somehow similar]
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
5K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
5K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
Replies
9
Views
7K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
4K
Replies
5
Views
8K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
7K