Exponential decay: I need an expression for N at time t

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around deriving an expression for the quantity N at time t in the context of exponential decay, specifically when N is influenced by constants B and C. Participants explore the formulation of a differential equation and seek methods to solve it, including both analytical and numerical approaches.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes that the change in N can be expressed as a differential equation: dN/dt = -(B*N - C).
  • Another suggests that the solution involves guessing an exponential function plus a constant, indicating a two-step process to solve the differential equation.
  • A participant shares a numerical approach using a computer program to iterate the value of N, expressing a desire for a non-iterative equation for varying B and C.
  • Concerns are raised about the complexity of finding an exact solution, with some participants indicating that the required mathematical background may not be sufficient for all contributors.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of the constant C in the iterative calculation, questioning whether its contribution can be ignored as dt approaches zero.
  • One participant emphasizes that the simplest numerical method involves discretizing the equation and using the Euler method for computation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing levels of understanding regarding the mathematical techniques required to solve the problem. While some agree on the complexity of finding an exact solution, others suggest numerical methods as a viable alternative. No consensus is reached on a definitive approach to derive N at time t.

Contextual Notes

The discussion reflects varying levels of mathematical proficiency among participants, with some expressing difficulty in solving the differential equation analytically. There is also uncertainty regarding the treatment of the constant C in the iterative method.

Jehannum
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I have a large quantity N, which starts off equal to a determinable value N0.

Over a short time ∆t, the value of N changes by -∆t*(B*N - C)

where B and C are determinable constants. Am I correct in thinking I can turn this into:

dN/dt = -(B*N - C)

How do I get this into a formula for N at time t? The 'extra' constant C seems to be making it more difficult than the examples of exponential decay I've found on the net.
 
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There are various ways to solve the differential equation, but the easiest is to "guess" the answer: an exponential function plus a constant. You can then find the parameters of this ansatz.
 
Jehannum said:
I have a large quantity N, which starts off equal to a determinable value N0.

Over a short time ∆t, the value of N changes by -∆t*(B*N - C)

where B and C are determinable constants. Am I correct in thinking I can turn this into:

dN/dt = -(B*N - C)

How do I get this into a formula for N at time t? The 'extra' constant C seems to be making it more difficult than the examples of exponential decay I've found on the net.

You can solve the equation in two steps:
1) Solve the homogeneous equation: ##dN_h/dt=-B*N_h(t)##
2) Then, you need to find a particular solution satisfying the full equation. In this case we can guess ##N_p(t)=A##, where ##A## is to be determined.
3) The most general solution is ##N(t)=N_h(t)+N_p(t)##
 
Unfortunately, my maths isn't yet advanced enough to do that.

I've been using a computer program to iterate the value of N over shorter and shorter dt intervals:

Num0 = 8.98249E+23 'Num0 = start value of N
B = 1.3831E-3
C = 1.21989E+21​

Numleft = Num0 'Numleft is the value of N as it decreases through the iterations

For time = 0 To (120 / dt) Step dt
Numleft = Numleft - dt * (B * Numleft - C)
Next time

As I try smaller and smaller values of dt, the final value of Numleft converges to 8.82E23

B and C will change in different situations. I'd like a non-iterative equation to find Numleft for any B and C (these will always be positive, if that helps).

PS. I notice that the constant C is not multiplied by Numleft, so the calculation in the loop could be written as: Numleft = Numleft - dt * B * Numleft + dt * C

Does this mean that dt * C can be ignored as dt -> 0?​
 
Jehannum said:
Unfortunately, my maths isn't yet advanced enough to do that.
That is more complicated than finding the exact solution.
 
I don't know what your background in Mathematics is. How to solve that differential equation is taught in a first course in differential equations, already in high school. Anyway, I can give some advice regarding how to solve it numerically. I don't know if you can find a non-iterative equation unless you solve it analytically.
However, I think you have misunderstood the way it should be solved. To do this numerically the simplest way is to discretize the equation. That is,
##dN \rightarrow N_{k+1}-N_{k)}, dt\rightarrow\Delta_t=t_{k+1}-t_{k}##, where ##N_{k+1}=N(t_{k+1}), N_{k}=N(t_{k})##. Here, ##t_k=k*\Delta##, assuming a equidistant mesh in time.
Then, you have
##N_{k+1}=N_{k}-(BN_k-C)##, where ##N_0=Num0##
In this way you can compute ##N(t)## by starting from ##t=0## and use the aforementioned relation. This is the so-called Euler method, see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_method
 
mfb said:
That is more complicated than finding the exact solution.
Yes, I completely agree with you.
 

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