Expressing any given point on plane with one unique number

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the possibility of expressing any point on a plane using a single unique number, exploring theoretical frameworks such as fractals and continuous curves. Participants examine the implications of such a system, including its feasibility and potential challenges, while considering higher dimensions as well.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes using a fractal that passes through every point on a plane, suggesting a method to express points based on tracing from an arbitrary origin.
  • Concerns are raised about whether a fractal can indeed pass through all points, including irrational ones, and the implications of this on the proposed system.
  • Another participant mentions the use of continuous curves like Hilbert or Peano curves to represent points in a square, noting that different curves yield different representations for the same point.
  • There is a question about the possibility of hitting the same point more than once when using such curves, indicating a need for clarification on this aspect.
  • A historical reference is made to Cantor's correspondence regarding the mapping of points, highlighting differing views on the feasibility of such representations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the feasibility of representing points with a single number, with some supporting the idea of fractals and continuous curves while others raise concerns about the implications and limitations of these methods. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in their understanding and the complexity of the topic, including the challenges of creating a surjective versus bijective mapping and the implications of irrational numbers in the proposed systems.

Mashiro
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
TL;DR
Question on if exists a fractal of a line such that after infinite iterations it could cover any given point on a plane.
Currently, as far as I know, the two main ways to express any given point on a plane is through either cartesian plane or polar coordinates. Both of which requires an ordered pair of two numbers to express a point. However, I wonder if there exists such a system that could express any given point on a plane using only one number.

Intuitionally, I think of lines. I know there exists fractals of a line that could theoretically fill a plane after infinite iterations. Therefore, I believe we can construct a system of expressing a plane based on such fractal:
1. The fractal must pass through all points, therefore arbitrarily define any point as origin, denoted as zero.
2. Based on zero, define a positive direction.
3. To express any given point, simple trace from zero, alone the fractal. The distance from your point to the origin would be the unique number describing the point on the plane.

However, some problems are also raised:
1. Does there exist such rule so that a fractal could pass through every single point on a plane? No matter rational or not.
2. If the theory is correct, due to the fact that set of irrational numbers is a higher level of infinity compared to the set of rational numbers, there is a 100% chance of meeting an "irrational point" by choosing arbitrarily. Is this going to be problematic?

If everything about this theory works out, could we apply the same method to a higher dimension (for instance 3-dimensional), and express any given point in a three dimensional space with two numbers? Or perhaps even one.

I am currently a sophomore and my knowledge about mathematics is basic. I might have made stupid mistakes anywhere above. Please point them out to me if you spot any.
 
Mathematics news on Phys.org
You can cover a certain square ##S\subseteq \mathbb{R}^2## of the plane with a single line, a Hilbert curve, or a Peano curve. Hence if our curve ##\gamma \, : \,[0,1] \longrightarrow S## hits your point ##p\in S## for the first time (more than once is possible), say ##\gamma (t_0)=p,## then ##t_0## can be thought of as a representation of ##p## by a single number.

The disadvantage is, that different squares lead to different curves lead to different representations.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: e_jane, topsquark, PeroK and 1 other person
fresh_42 said:
You can cover a certain square ##S\subseteq \mathbb{R}^2## of the plane with a single line, a Hilbert curve, or a Peano curve. Hence if our curve ##\gamma \, : \,[0,1] \longrightarrow S## hits your point ##p\in S## for the first time (more than once is possible), say ##\gamma (t_0)=p,## then ##t_0## can be thought of as a representation of ##p## by a single number.

The disadvantage is, that different squares lead to different curves lead to different representations.
Thank you so much! I was learning polar coordinates today in class and could not help thinking about this question. However, I still don't understand why it is possible to hit a same point more than once.
 
Mashiro said:
Thank you so much! I was learning polar coordinates today in class and could not help thinking about this question. However, I still don't understand why it is possible to hit a same point more than once.
A surjective mapping looks easier to create than a bijective one so I wrote this passage a bit as an insurance. Let me look it up.

Cantor wrote in a letter to Dedkind in 1874 that it was impossible and that proof was almost unnecessary.
Three years later in 1877, Cantor wrote Dedekind a letter that he now believed that it is possible and added a sketch of proof.

At least I have been faster than Cantor. It is possible without crossings, but it can last until your point is covered.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: topsquark and PeroK
"At least I have been faster than Cantor." - Ha! :-D
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 36 ·
2
Replies
36
Views
6K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
5K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
6K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
1K