Favorite crossword author, Merl Reagle

[Math Is Hard]

My favorite crossword author, Merl Reagle, did a theme last Sunday on "trinonyms". I thought it was pretty clever.

He explains them like this:

"One of the definitions of bath is "bathtub," which makes the word bathtub itself a linguistic rarity: bath, tub, and bathtub are all synonyms—or "trinonyms," if you will. After stalking these odd birds for many years I found only ten others—just enough for a puzzle."

http://media.lawrence.com/img/deadwood/crosswords/2006/03/puzzle060307.pdf

Just thought the linguistics folk and the crossword fans here might enjoy this puzzle.

 

[Danger]

Thanks, MIH. I love puzzles. No time to read it right now, but I'll print it out when I get a chance and take a shot at it.

 

[FredGarvin]

Cool. Thanks. I do crosswords, but never bothered to look at the author's names. I wonder if I have a favorite author?

 

[-Job-]

I wouldn't call Bath, Tub and Bathtub synonyms to be honest. Not all tubs are bathtubs, so are tub and bathtub really synonyms? Bathtub is an element of the set "tubs", so they are related, but not equivalent.
I understand that the definition of synonym, from the dictionary is:
"A word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another word or other words in a language. "
I disagree with that nearly, because by that approach then "primate" and "human" would be synonym, and that doesn't sound right. Anyone agree or is my thinking wrong on this matter?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Cool. Thanks. I do crosswords, but never bothered to look at the author's names. I wonder if I have a favorite author?

Back when a friend and I used to do the Sunday paper cryptograms together we were quite aware of the authors names. K.C. Doyle of Deland Florida was our archnemesis!

 

[Math Is Hard]

Back when a friend and I used to do the Sunday paper cryptograms together we were quite aware of the authors names. K.C. Doyle of Deland Florida was our archnemesis!

We like to grade the crossword puzzles after finishing them, jot down the time to completion, and then add constructive comments for the author (usually Merl). I keep threatening to mail these to him. Our little pretend game is that we are Merl's raison d'etre, and that he dreams of the day that he will write the crossword that we cannot crack. Every Sunday, we dash his hopes, and he skulks away back to his dark library, infuriated, but more determined than ever.

 

[Moonbear]

Wow, I've never even paid attention to the author of crossword puzzles.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

We like to grade the crossword puzzles after finishing them, jot down the time to completion, and then add constructive comments for the author (usually Merl). I keep threatening to mail these to him. Our little pretend game is that we are Merl's raison d'etre, and that he dreams of the day that he will write the crossword that we cannot crack. Every Sunday, we dash his hopes, and he skulks away back to his dark library, infuriated, but more determined than ever.

We were always talking about sending fan mail and maybe paying some people to follow him/her around like groupies.

 

[AKG]

Took me an hour, though there were a few letters I couldn't get. The first letter of 73 across, the second and fourth letters of 92 across, and the second, third, and fourth letters of 115 across are what I would have guessed, but I wasn't sure so technically I didn't get them. I also didn't get the first and third letters of 129 across, but I had no clue when it came to these two.

Definitely a fun puzzle. Not too hard, not too easy, with good clues. Plus, the theme was good.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Here's the solution, for anyone who is interested.
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/special_packages/phillycom_teases/14138508.htm
And here are the trinonyms:

Bunnyrabbit
Ratfink
Sodapop
Taxicab
Forefront
Oleomargarine
Taperecord
Kittycat
Sumtotal
also, I think 84 across "Getonboard" was supposed to be one, but that didn't quite work for me.

 

[honestrosewater]

Sweet! I'm going to try to find more.

I bet there are more too. Words are always being compounded and shortened. Meanings shift. The words that get joined together are usually already related to each other in some way (that's why they get put together). Imagine this scenario (which I am completely making up): some flubs are gub, so gub flub becomes a unit that means something different than what the words mean separately, as blackbird or black bear. People shorten gub flub to just gub. Flub already referred to flubs, and now gub flub and gub do so too. This seems common enough to me, especially if gub was added as an adjective or verb and isn't already being used as a noun (its only meaning as a noun would be to refer to a gub flub -- it wouldn't have to 'compete' with any other nouns gub. This might be what happened in English with, for example, black or blacks, as used as a noun to refer to people with a certain range of skin colors, national origin, or whatever the classification was based on. I'm not sure if it was clipped from black people or not though. I'm almost certain this is what happened with my example below, sabretoothed tiger (actually, (ack! it keeps getting more complex!) see, sabretoothed is an adjective that could have been formed in different ways, some of which don't include a step with the noun sabretooth, which might not have been a word until AFTER sabretoothed tiger was clipped to sabretooth. THEN sabretooth was compounded (or compounded again, in a way) with tiger to form sabretooth tiger. Or people could have dropped the -ed for other reasons. Bah, I will have to look into this one -- the history of the word is probably attested, so it's a good chance to test predictions. Sweetness). You just need to get flub to take on the more specific meaning, gub flub, without adding any morphemes (words or parts of words) to it; this can be accomplished by flub being used in a narrower context or by its other meanings dying or becoming less common.

It could happen in other ways, of course. That's just one option. Bathtub, for example, was probably bathing tub (bathing being formed from the verb bathe). So it's not necessarily so straightforward either. And they don't have to be compounds either. Telephone, from below, isn't a compound. They don't even need to be [word]-noun compounds, though that type is, AFAIK, the most common. Taperecord was meant as a verb, yes? (I've never head taperecord used as a noun.)

Ack, don't post interesting stuff! I'm supposed to be doing homework! :grumpy: :tongue2:

Oh, saber is more common than sabre, it seems (if anyone else is looking (yeah, right)).

 

[honestrosewater]

Okay, here's a kinda cheating one, but it's just an example: Sabretooth tiger. I don't know how common sabretooth tiger is; sabretoothed tiger might be more common (the spelling isn't important -- there is no word boundary where the empty space or hyphen would go). But as a separate word, I've seen sabretooth (meaning that kind of tiger).

I don't know what this one is, but I think it's cute. Some people pronounce the first part of telephone as I have heard British English speakers pronounce telly. I know telephone has been clipped (the process of dropping part of a word to get a new word is called clipping) to phone. Telly usually refers to a television, but I will try to find out if some speakers use it to refer to telephones. Television has given us tv, tv set, and set (in some contexts).

Someone might have already studied this kind of process and have a big list. In English compounds (words formed by concatenating two or more other words), the last word is (usually) the head, or they are head-final. (This is a scientific observation, by the way, not a prescribed rule.) So a fairytale is a type of tale, a birdhouse is a type of house, a blackbird is a type of bird, and so on. The comound's complement(s) (the word(s) other than the head) are already legal words in the language, so if their meaning changes after the compound is formed, the complements are ripe for clipping.

 

[honestrosewater]

I wouldn't call Bath, Tub and Bathtub synonyms to be honest. Not all tubs are bathtubs, so are tub and bathtub really synonyms? Bathtub is an element of the set "tubs", so they are related, but not equivalent.
I understand that the definition of synonym, from the dictionary is:
"A word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another word or other words in a language. "
I disagree with that nearly, because by that approach then "primate" and "human" would be synonym, and that doesn't sound right. Anyone agree or is my thinking wrong on this matter?

I see what you're saying, but words, or rather word forms, can have more than one meaning. Tub can mean any kind of tub or specifically a bathtub. One meaning of tub is equivalent to one meaning of bath is equivalent to one meaning of bathtub. This is why my sabretooth tiger one isn't a real one; people don't use tiger to mean specifically a sabretooth tiger.

 

[AKG]

There are definitely more, since I thought of one last night, but now I've forgotten it. Here's one, although I don't think it's the one I thought of last night: "billy goat". I don't know if this one is so good, since 'goat' itself doesn't really specify that it's male. I'll see if I can remember the one I thought of.

 

[honestrosewater]

I think relatively modern inventions/discoveries or specialized concepts that became common would be a good place to look. Compounds are an obvious choice when coming up with names for those things, and I imagine the words used would tend to be specialized in the first place, so there isn't that 'competition' thing to stop people from clipping the word. For example, most people don't use vacuum as it is used in physics, so vacuum cleaner can be clipped to just vacuum.

Of course, it also works the other way: since the context is narrower, the extra words aren't necessary. For example, astronomers at work can just say scope to refer to a telescope.

It can also happen that most people just don't know the difference between the more specilaized words, so people use them synonymously. For example, jet, plane, and jet plane might be used this way. I don't even know if they have a more specialized meaning. I think I associate jet with a special 'look' and speed (fast). I don't really use jet plane (don't need it) -- except when singing Leaving On A Jet Plane.

I think the main thing to realize is that the usual reason that speakers form a new word is that they think their old words can't do the job in the given context. In the case of compounds, the complement usually narrows the head's meaning or referents, i.e., as when you say first base to refer to only one of the three bases in baseball. The category of the compound will be the same as the category of the head, but can differ from the complement's category. In that case, you can make a new word that has the meaning and category of the compound but the word form of the compound's complement. For example, in baseball, you can use first as a noun to refer to first base.

Now, English doesn't use inflection much, so switching categories without changing the word form might usually be possible. However, I don't know how well this would work in languages that are highly-inflected. It might happen that you can't usually change the category without having to change the word form as well.

Anywho, if you want the word form of the head to take on the meaning of the compound, since the head was not specific enough in the original context to do the job of the compound, either the context needs to be changed enough to narrow, in the right way, the meaning of the head or the head's meaning in the original context needs to be narrowed enough in some way that doesn't change the head's word form. The only way that I know to do that is for its other meanings to die off and not be replaced, which I don't think is very quick or easy. I think this is going to be the rarer thing, the head and compound having the same meaning.

 

[Math Is Hard]

I got excited for a moment about zigzag -- close but no cigar.

 

[AKG]

I don't think vacuum cleaner works, since people don't normally use "cleaner" to refer to "vacuum cleaner." How about "back end"?

 

[honestrosewater]

I don't think vacuum cleaner works, since people don't normally use "cleaner" to refer to "vacuum cleaner." How about "back end"?

Right, I was just giving it as an example of the process I was talking about.Feel free to let me know how often the head (the last word in the compound) being too general ends up being a deal breaker.

 

[honestrosewater]

There might be a few with radio. I think radio receiver is one in wide use. Radio transmitter or radio transceiver might also be in narrower (but not too narrow) contexts.

 

[Math Is Hard]

trolleycar?

 

[zoobyshoe]

trolleycar?

Choochootrain.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Choochootrain.

Oooo... Good one. I've been trying to come up with some and haven't thought of any myself yet.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Oooo... Good one. I've been trying to come up with some and haven't thought of any myself yet.

And, I just realized, in addition to kittycat there's pussycat.

 

[zoobyshoe]

The adjective barenaked.

http://www.bnlmusic.com/

 

[honestrosewater]

streamflow? I say streamflow all the time. electric current, stairstep(s), sunlight (as in She opened the curtains to let in the sun), sunrays (catch some rays at the beach), market square, paycheck?

Better rules would make this easier. For example, how common (in terms of the number/percentage of speakers) do you guys want the usages to be? There are more that are produced by narrowing and broadening the contexts, but to keep the usages rather common, I have to limit the contexts to common ones (e.g., in a home, around town).

Metonymy (and synecdoche, if you make a distinction) might also produce trinonyms. Gah, I just had one, but I lost it when I looked up how to spell synecdoche! Curse you, synecdoche!

 

[honestrosewater]

Police officer, postage stamp, remote control? I've heard people call the remote control just the control. Rain shower? Hm, and looking up rain shower, I found shower bath. That's a rather slippery one though.

I wonder why bunny rabbit and kitty cat differ from puppy dog.

 

[Math Is Hard]

I like paycheck very much. I think the true test is if you can construct a sentence swapping either part of the compound word and then the word itself all smoothly and interchangeably without losing context:

I want my pay.
I want my check.
I want my paycheck.

Works!

 

[Math Is Hard]

My best so far is jampack.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Better rules would make this easier. For example, how common (in terms of the number/percentage of speakers) do you guys want the usages to be? There are more that are produced by narrowing and broadening the contexts, but to keep the usages rather common, I have to limit the contexts to common ones (e.g., in a home, around town).

Rules can easily be extrapolated from the list:

Bunnyrabbit
Ratfink
Sodapop
Taxicab
Forefront
Oleomargarine
Taperecord
Kittycat
Sumtotal

For instance, both parts have to be able to function as the same part of speech as the composite word. Tell an officer about it. Tell a police about it. Doesn't work.

"streamflow"?
No. This is your own neologism.
"electric current"
No, electric is an adjective here, current a noun. It's not two redundant nouns like "kittycat" or redundant verbs like "taperecord".
"stairstep(s)"
No. "stair" is an adjective here. "Steps" a noun.
"sunlight"
Possibly, by the same logic as "bathtub". Not all tubs can be used for bathing and not all light is from the sun, however you can mean the same thing if you say "Open the curtain and let the sun in." or "Open the curtain and let the light in."
"sunrays"
No. People mostly say "sun's rays".
market square
No.
paycheck?
Another possible "bathtub". Most "checks" imply "pay" (with the exception of gifts and prizes,) but most "pay" doesn't automatically imply a check.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I think the true test is if you can construct a sentence swapping either part of the compound word and then the word itself all smoothly and interchangeably without losing context:

I want my pay.
I want my check.
I want my paycheck.

Works!

Whats wrong with choochootrain, pussycat, and barenaked?

 

[zoobyshoe]

My best so far is jampack.

I was suspicious of this at first, since I'd only ever heard it used as an adjective, as in The meeting was jampacked. However, Webster's has "jam-pack" listed as a proper verb:

jam-pack
One entry found for jam-pack.
Main Entry: jam-pack
Pronunciation: 'jam-'pak
Function: transitive verb
: to pack tightly or to excess

Therefore I believe "jampack" is a completely valid trinonym (no "bathtub" iffyness about it).

 

[honestrosewater]

Rules can easily be extrapolated from the list:

I don't assume that absence implies unacceptablity. By that argument, all trinonym compounds must be 7-13 letters long.

The only definite requirement that I took from the author's explanation was that they be three synonyms. I assumed they intended the pattern that two of them show up in the third (though it isn't clear how exactly they should show up). I thought this was just fun anyway and was asking for you guys' opinions and interests, i.e., whether anyone was interested in rarer usages (like highly-specialized terms). There might be a lot of those, and I imagine that could get boring.

For instance, both parts have to be able to function as the same part of speech as the composite word. Tell an officer about it. Tell a police about it. Doesn't work.

Those are both functioning as the same part of speech: noun. One is plural and one is singular. I do see your point though. Police officers passes your test.

1) Tell the [police/officers/police officers] about it.

"streamflow"?
No. This is your own neologism.

No, it is a rather highly-specialized term: http://www.onelook.com/?w=streamflow&ls=a
It was also just a joke.

"electric current"
No, electric is an adjective here, current a noun. It's not two redundant nouns like "kittycat" or redundant verbs like "taperecord".

I'm not assuming that the compound's components need to have the same category (noun, verb, etc.). I doubt the words on the list woiuld even fit that requirement. That they are on the list implies that they can be used as the same category. That doesn't mean that they were being used as the same category when the compounds were formed or even that they are being used as the same category in the compunds now. Do you have some evidence or analysis that suggests otherwise?

It seems to me that people use electric to mean electric current when they say

2) My electric was cut off.

Note that, in (2), electric is functioning as a noun.

"sunlight"
Possibly, by the same logic as "bathtub". Not all tubs can be used for bathing

Not all cabs are taxis, not all totals are sums, etc. This point was already addressed: word forms can be associated with more than one meaning (which often depends on the context). If one meaning of a word form is equivalent, or nearly equivalent, to one meaning of another word form, people usually say that those words are synonyms: http://www.onelook.com/?w=synonym&ls=a

Also, I even predicted that finding heads that weren't too general would be a problem and gave a reason why that might be the case.

"sunrays"
No. People mostly say "sun's rays".

Where are you getting these rules from? I can't remember the last time before seeing this thread that I said ratfink.

And how exactly do you know what people mostly say? Seriously, how much research did you do? I'd like to see your data if you have some. Sunrays is in dictionaries (many of which actually do research): http://www.onelook.com/?w=sunray&ls=a

Whether it's intentional or not, I really don't like the way that you talk to me, so I would appreciate it if you just didn't address me anymore after we can put this conversation to rest. So you aren't left in suspense, I'll probably ignore you after this. No hard feelings or whatever -- we just keep having this problem, and I can't seem to fix it, so I think it's better for everyone if we don't speak to each other until something changes. If you'd like, I won't even wish you a Happy Birthday.

 

[honestrosewater]

light bulb?

Q: Why did you turn off the light?
A: I didn't. The bulb burnt out.

Maybe light refers more to the lamp than to the bulb? Do people say change the light or the light burnt out? I think I've heard the light burnt out before, and it makes sense to me.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I do not consider it valid to assume that absence implies unacceptablity. By that argument, all trinonym compounds must be 7-13 letters long.

I don't know what this means: "absence implies unacceptibility."

Those are both functioning as the same part of speech: noun. One is plural and one is singular. I do see your point though. Police officers passes your test.

"Police" is a noun, yes. In the phrase "police officer" "police" functions as a "descriptor" which modifies "officer" making the type of officer specific. This is a different dynamic than the mere redundancy of bunnyrabbit or kittycat, which are the undisputed, pure forms of trinonyms. So, the question in my mind is how far, and by what logic, does "bathtub" allow us to deviate from the pure form? If we allow "police officer" then why not "executive officer"?

No, it is a technical term: http://www.onelook.com/?w=streamflow&ls=a

Your quite right. I apologize for thinking you coined the term, and I think it's an excellent example of a trinonym.

I'm not assuming that the compound's components need to have the same category (noun, verb, etc.). I doubt the words on the list woiuld even fit that requirement. That they are on the list implies that they can be used as the same category. That doesn't mean that they were being used as the same category when the compounds were formed or even that they are being used as the same category in the compunds now. Do you have some evidence or analysis that suggests otherwise?

They are all noun-noun, with the exception of "taperecord". I'm simply extrapolating from that.

It seems to me that people use electric to mean electric current when they say

2) My electric was cut off.

Note that, in (2), electric is functioning as a noun.

Yes, but in "electric current" electric is an adjective. It isn't being used there as the colloquial noun.

Not all cabs are taxis, not all totals are sums, etc. This point was already addressed: word forms can be associated with more than one meaning (which often depends on the context). If one meaning of a word form is equivalent, or nearly equivalent, with one meaning of another word form, people usually say that those words are synonyms: http://www.onelook.com/?w=synonym&ls=a

Your right about these. They are more "bathtubby" than I realized at first.

Where are you getting these rules from?

That's not a rule, it's an observation.

I can't remember the last time before seeing this thread that I said ratfink.

It's a very outdated term. It was in use when I was a young kid, but I haven't heard anyone use it in decades. "Oleomargarine" is also ancient, and no one much "taperecords" anything anymore.

And how exactly do you know what people mostly say? Seriously, how much research did you do? I'd like to see your data if you have some. Sunrays is in dictionaries (many of which actually do research): http://www.onelook.com/?w=sunray&ls=a

I listen to people talk, I read, watch tv. I have never heard anyone say "sunray". I've heard "sun's rays" quite a bit, as well as "sunbeam" but "sunray" only conjures up a brand of sunglasses. For me to say that people don't use it was probably not a proper objection to it being a trinonym, though. I think the reason it struck me as wrong is because sun and ray, while closely related, aren't broadly synonymous.

Whether it's intentional or not, I really don't like the way that you talk to me, so I would appreciate it if you just didn't address me anymore after we can put this conversation to rest. Just so you aren't left in suspense, I'll probably ignore you after this. No hard feelings or whatever -- I think it's just better for everyone if we don't speak to each other unless necessary. An early Happy Birthday!

No, an early Happy Birthday to you!

 

[honestrosewater]

Suffixing -ed to verbs is a way to change them to adjectives, specifically, past participles. Jam, pack, jampack can become jammed, packed, jampacked. You can also form present participles: jamming, packing, jampacking. I think participle formation is productive (you can do it in the same way to any word in the category (with a few possible exceptions)), so it sort of illustrates what I was talking about with inflection, except that, with inflection, the change is required for grammaticality.