Feynman's summing arrows for photon amplitudes applied to LIGO?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Spinnor
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Feynman
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of Feynman's technique for calculating quantum amplitudes, specifically in the context of photon detection at the LIGO interferometer. Participants explore whether the method of summing arrows can be effectively utilized to account for the infinite paths photons may take within the interferometer setup.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions if Feynman's technique for calculating quantum amplitudes can be applied to LIGO, considering the infinite paths photons can take due to the interferometer's design.
  • Another participant suggests that the technique may merely be a simplified graphical representation of adding complex amplitudes, rather than a rigorous method.
  • A different viewpoint emphasizes that Feynman's representation serves as a basis for quantum electrodynamics (QED), although it is presented in a more accessible format in "The Strange Theory of Light and Matter."
  • Some participants express skepticism about the effectiveness of Feynman's teaching style and the clarity of his lectures, noting that they found them challenging even after studying advanced topics in QED and quantum field theory (QFT).
  • One participant recalls a historical critique of Feynman's teaching methods, suggesting that while his lectures have been influential, they may not have achieved their intended educational goals.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing opinions on the applicability and clarity of Feynman's technique, with no consensus reached regarding its effectiveness in the context of LIGO or its pedagogical value.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight limitations in understanding Feynman's approach, suggesting that it may not fully capture the complexities of quantum amplitudes in practical applications like LIGO.

Spinnor
Gold Member
Messages
2,227
Reaction score
419
In Feynman's The Strange Theory of Light and Matter the simple technique for calculating quantum amplitudes for simple optical phenomenon by adding arrows is given. Could that same technique in principle be used to calculate the amplitude for a photon to arrive at the detector port of the LIGO interferometer? Because light gets stored in Fabry-Perot interferometers and also recycled there are an infinite number of possible paths to the detector and all paths need to be added?

With LIGO adjusted for a detector null can you just argue that for every path to the detector by the left arm there is by symmetry an identical path to the detector by the right arm with opposite phase, all paths must pair off and add to zero amplitude?

Thanks for any help.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Spinnor said:
the simple technique for calculating quantum amplitudes for simple optical phenomenon by adding arrows is given

But is this technique something different than just a graphical dumb-down representation of what we're actually doing, that is, adding complex amplitudes?
 
weirdoguy said:
But is this technique something different than just a graphical dumb-down representation of what we're actually doing, that is, adding complex amplitudes?

weirdoguy said:
But is this technique something different than just a graphical dumb-down representation of what we're actually doing, that is, adding complex amplitudes?
I don't think it is, I think he represents this technique as basis of quantum electrodynamics but to be sure I would have to watch his Auckland lectures again.

 
Spinnor said:
I think he represents this technique as basis of quantum electrodynamics

Ok, but in QED we either work with Feynman diagrams, or with path integrals. "The Strange Theory of Light and Matter" is a pop-sci book in which he presents a layman-friendly* version of the latter technique, or mixture of both.


*Which for me wasn't friendly at all xD And I read this book after passing classes on QED, QFT, and operator methods in QFT. I don't know, there is something about Feynmans way of lecturing that I don't like and it makes it hard to read everything. I'm not that big fan of "Feynmans lectures" either...
 
weirdoguy said:
But is this technique something different than just a graphical dumb-down representation of what we're actually doing, that is, adding complex amplitudes?


weirdoguy said:
Ok, but in QED we either work with Feynman diagrams, or with path integrals. "The Strange Theory of Light and Matter" is a pop-sci book in which he presents a layman-friendly* version of the latter technique, or mixture of both.


*Which for me wasn't friendly at all xD And I read this book after passing classes on QED, QFT, and operator methods in QFT. I don't know, there is something about Feynmans way of lecturing that I don't like and it makes it hard to read everything. I'm not that big fan of "Feynmans lectures" either...

I think most of his students that sat through the Feynman lectures on physics would agree with you, I think he points this out in the last lecture?
 
weirdoguy said:
I'm not that big [a] fan of "Feynmans lectures" either...
That seems almost like sacrilege in the physics teaching profession, but there has been a fair amount of professional criticism to support it. I remember reading an article in that vein many years ago, probably in TPT although it may have been in Physics Today or AJP. I believe the author was present in the early 1960's at Cal Tech when Feynman did his now-famous "experiment" teaching the freshman class using that series of books.

As the semester progressed there were fewer and fewer students present in the lecture hall, and more and more professors! It was a "view from above" and a grand one at that. But the novice is the intended audience, and the purpose is not to impress them, but to teach them. While certainly well-intentioned, Feynman missed the mark. And when he agreed to perform this "experiment" it was under the condition that he do it only once. I think the appeal of the "Feynman Lectures in Physics" over these many decades has been largely driven by professional physicists who see the series as a neat way to present the subject. So it's a nice theory, but it fails experimental verification.

Edit: IIRC even Feynman himself felt that his "experiment" in teaching the freshman sequence had been a failure. And keep in mind that he did it at Cal Tech where of course the caliber of student is well above average,
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 57 ·
2
Replies
57
Views
5K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 157 ·
6
Replies
157
Views
16K
  • · Replies 76 ·
3
Replies
76
Views
6K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
6K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
5K