Find Out More About Zen Meditation: Can Anyone Recommend a Book?

  • Thread starter Thread starter pattiecake
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary
Zen meditation emphasizes direct experience and insight rather than rigid beliefs, allowing practitioners to remain open to growth and understanding. It is rooted in Buddhism but is often perceived as more strict, focusing on meditation techniques and a minimalist lifestyle. Recommended introductory books include "The Three Pillars of Zen," "The Way of Zen," and works by Alan Watts. The discussion highlights the importance of returning to the original teachings of the Buddha, which prioritize meditation as a means to achieve enlightenment. Engaging with a local Zen community or class is suggested for those interested in deepening their practice.
  • #31
Let's say you wanted to understand Socrates. Do you read books by people who studied Plato's reports, or do you read Plato's reports? I don't understand all this talk about Watts, Tolles, Capra, et al when we have original texts to study. 20th century interpreters of the Buddha being studied over the Buddha himself :confused: it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.

Dr. Yes, I especially cannot follow this sort of thinking, "I haven't suggested a person should dwell on any one, single aspect of being. I am suggesting that all aspects of life, past, present and future, have something to offer in terms of usefullness and practicality. More importantly, these aspects (among others) add a balance and breadth to the near-sighted condition of "the now".

Understanding all aspects of life may very well have something to offer one, but what does this have to do with Zen? Study it historically, from original texts, and precede that by studying the Buddha because Zen is nothing more than a slight variation on how the Buddha taught, adjusted for the Taoist audience Bodhidarma was to address.

"NOW" is exactly, precisely, totally what Zen (and all samadhi meditation) is about. There is nothing near-sighted about it . . . rather, it is specialized. Do you think it is easy to attain the experience of now? If it were then you might have a point. But it takes years of practice, and serious dedication. So just like someone who wants to be an Olympic wrestler gets focused (tho according to you, near-sighted), to achieve the very difficult realization of "now" a person dedicates himself.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
Les Sleeth said:
Let's say you wanted to understand Socrates. Do you read books by people who studied Plato's reports, or do you read Plato's reports? I don't understand all this talk about Watts, Tolles, Capra, et al when we have original texts to study. 20th century interpreters of the Buddha being studied over the Buddha himself :confused: it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.

Dr. Yes, I especially cannot follow this sort of thinking, "I haven't suggested a person should dwell on any one, single aspect of being. I am suggesting that all aspects of life, past, present and future, have something to offer in terms of usefullness and practicality. More importantly, these aspects (among others) add a balance and breadth to the near-sighted condition of "the now".

Understanding all aspects of life may very well have something to offer one, but what does this have to do with Zen? Study it historically, from original texts, and precede that by studying the Buddha because Zen is nothing more than a slight variation on how the Buddha taught, adjusted for the Taoist audience Bodhidarma was to address.

"NOW" is exactly, precisely, totally what Zen (and all samadhi meditation) is about. There is nothing near-sighted about it . . . rather, it is specialized. Do you think it is easy to attain the experience of now? If it were then you might have a point. But it takes years of practice, and serious dedication. So just like someone who wants to be an Olympic wrestler gets focused (tho according to you, near-sighted), to achieve the very difficult realization of "now" a person dedicates himself.

Hello Les, I have a good understanding of the tao (way) and the now. This has been going on for 24 years for me. I am offering a flip-side or the shadow side of Zen where I view it's focus on "the now" as a resource among many other available resources. Nothing more. Nothing special about it. Equal in importance to learning wrestling, as you have mentioned.

Claude Monet (an early impressionist artist) was near-sighted. This condition helped him to produce what we view today as masterpieces of impressionism.

Monet's near-sightedness was a resource that was useful in his endeavour. That doesn't mean it was the gospel to all art or even all impressionist art. In this case near-sightedness was simply one of an infinite number of conditions from which one can draw resources.

As for your confused state concerning the book list I posted: I recommend staying in the now and accepting those events that you have attracted to yourself. o:)
 
  • #33
WeeDie said:
I agree with this. I believe however that the argument is simply a matter of semantics. I've read Eckhart Tolles book and I think it is quite good.
Tolle uses the word NOW in terms of the nothingness that everything is happening in. He doesn't mean that only the present moment counts, he means that both the past and the future is happening in the NOW - which is of cource true because it couldn't be any other way. The future is always a concept, an idea, sense it hasn't yet happend. If you're focusing on the future it is a sure sign that you are focusing on abstractions of what is happening in the NOW. Do you see? I, as you, believe everything is of equal importance but I agree with Tolle when he says that NOW is all there is. To focus your whole attention on an abstraction, the future, is to run from life - which is happening NOW.

Quite often a carpenter will have to focus on the future and wonder if he can fit a piece of wood into a slot or whathaveyou. He must contemplate the future in order to work in the now on the piece of wood that must fit into the slot in the future.

The carpenter uses the future as a resource that is helpful in constructing somthing in the now that will remain for some time, into the future... and become something from the past which may also be useful at another point.

You said someone named Tolle wrote " NOW in terms of the nothingness that everything is happening in".

This is an assumption. My assumption is that nothingness is a part of everything and that everything is simply... happening.

I cannot confirm or deny that everything is happening in something. Therefore, I'd rather not assume anything of the sort. Thanks!
 
Last edited:
  • #34
Dr.Yes said:
Hello Les, I have a good understanding of the tao (way) and the now.

What does the Tao have to do with Zen? Taoists aren't reknown for meditation, but rather for participating in life a certain way, in harmony with the Tao. This has absolutely nothing to do with Zen.


Dr.Yes said:
This has been going on for 24 years for me. I am offering a flip-side or the shadow side of Zen where I view it's focus on "the now" as a resource among many other available resources. Nothing more. Nothing special about it. Equal in importance to learning wrestling, as you have mentioned.

What is the shadow side of Zen, meditation? Zen IS meditation and the experience that results when that meditation is successful, period.

Sorry, but I don't think you are making sense. We are in a thread talking about Zen meditation, and what it might offer. So what if there are other valuable resources? (I assume you mean conscious resources.) We aren't talking about other resources, we are talking about Zen.


Dr.Yes said:
As for your confused state concerning the book list I posted: I recommend staying in the now and accepting those events that you have attracted to yourself. o:)

I am not confused, I just don't think you know much about Zen, yet you are acting like you do. Watts was a lifelong alcoholic, who nonetheless thought he could expound on Zen philosophically. I read him quite a bit when I first started meditating, so I'm not guessing when I say he was trying to explain silence by talking about it. See the problem?

Today all the lazy people think they get to be an expert on Zen by reading books, when the people who made Zen a reality had to meditate for decades. I am into my fourth decade of daily meditation and I am pretty sure I can recognize when someone is experienced in meditation and when they are talking from theory. Which are you? Here's a sampling of your thinking which I say gives away you are philosophizing sans experience:


Dr.Yes said:
There are Zen practitioners who have spent 20 years painting the image of the same mountain for 20 years. Through this disciplined approach to understanding a phenomenon, there is the belief that the practitioner will understand every mountain, every tree, every river, every rock and everything else, just by concentrating, fully and wholey on one aspect of their environment.

You might be right that there are people doing this, but it isn't anything the Buddha or followers faithful to his teaching ever recommended. This is something made up by people who believe as you stated you believe, "Personally, I am of the belief that Jack of All Trades, Master of None can evolve into a form of what the Zenists have tended to attempt to attain." Such thinkers decided they could interpret the Buddha's teaching anyway they pleased, and did just that. But I say Bodhidarma was true to the Buddha's teaching, and that the only true Ch'an/Zen masters have been those true to the Buddha's teaching. If you want to call devotees of bastardized approaches "masters" then make them masters of archery or motorcycle maintenance, not Zen.

Before you claim you can do what Zen masters have done, don't you think you need to understand what samadhi is? What is, or I should say, was Zen? As I pointed out in my first post to this thread, Zen is the later Japanese pronuciation of the Chinese word chan-na -- abbreveated Ch’an -- which was their rendering of the sanskrit word dhyana, which means meditation. The realization that can come from samadhi meditation the Buddha taught is what Ch'an, and early Zen was all about.

It is a very specific skill, and requires a very specific practice. You are really misleading people (and this is why I am challenging you) when you claim someone can realize via the jack-of-all-trades approach what someone realizes through a dedicated meditation practice. I know because I do both, and I know that there is no possible way to get what one gets from meditation any other way than from doing the work of meditation.

A true meditator knows that to practice, one has to actually reverse one's attention 180° from the usual "out there" focus to a totally inside focus. It is not the normal way consciousness operates, and it take a lot of practice to get anywhere. So how does one go around doing only out-there stuff and attain that inner realization? When someone tells me they meditate by staring at candles or a wall, or by communing with nature, or by mastering archery or painting . . . I know they are lost (when it comes to Zen) because they are focused in the wrong direction.

I am not trying to say that your practices are wrong, or even that they might not be superior to a true Zen practice. If they work for you that's fine. What I am trying to say is that you haven't been speaking accurately about Zen.
 
  • #35
[/QUOTE]Today all the lazy people think they get to be an expert on Zen by reading books, when the people who made Zen a reality had to meditate for decades.[/QUOTE]



You stated in your first post in this thread that anyone who is serious about learning Zen meditation should be careful about who they let teach them. In your opinion, is learning from a master of the original teachings the only way to truly learn this ancient discipline, and if so, are there many Zen masters around the world who still teach this way.
 
  • #36
Simetra7 said:
You stated in your first post in this thread that anyone who is serious about learning Zen meditation should be careful about who they let teach them. In your opinion, is learning from a master of the original teachings the only way to truly learn this ancient discipline, and if so, are there many Zen masters around the world who still teach this way.

Private message me if you are interested.
 
  • #37
Les Sleeth said:
Private message me if you are interested.



This was more of a general question in line with the content of this thread. I was just wondering whether these people are out there, and available to teach someone who may be genuinely interested.
 
  • #38
Simetra7 said:
This was more of a general question in line with the content of this thread. I was just wondering whether these people are out there, and available to teach someone who may be genuinely interested.

Well, let me answer your question like this. How many people do you know who have meditated over an hour per day for nearly 32 years and still consider themselves unworthy to teach? The only reason for that is because the competence of stillness of who taught me is still far beyond what I have achieved. So why should I get in the way? Yet I am thrilled with what I've accomplished, and can heartily recommend others to try it.

My experience is, there are many, many willing to teach, but very, very few who actually can both impart the experience and keep one on track until one realizes how to realize the experience for oneself.
 
  • #39
Les Sleeth said:
What does the Tao have to do with Zen? Taoists aren't reknown for meditation, but rather for participating in life a certain way, in harmony with the Tao. This has absolutely nothing to do with Zen.

I takes a certain meditation to participate in harmony with the Tao. I referred to the Tao because I saw it mentioned somewhere in the above posts.




Les Sleeth said:
What is the shadow side of Zen, meditation? Zen IS meditation and the experience that results when that meditation is successful, period.

The "shadow of Zen" is another way I attempted to describe the "flip-side of Zen".

Les Sleeth said:
Sorry, but I don't think you are making sense. We are in a thread talking about Zen meditation, ...edit We aren't talking about other resources, we are talking about Zen.

On the contrary, if you include my participation in this discussion, we are talking about resources etc.

Les Sleeth said:
I am not confused, I just don't think you know much about Zen, yet you are acting like you do.

My opinions are based on what I've experienced or know about a subject like you or anyone else.

Les Sleeth said:
Today all the lazy people think they get to be an expert on Zen by reading books,

They are experts at reading books.

Les Sleeth said:
I am not trying to say that your practices are wrong, or even that they might not be superior to a true Zen practice. If they work for you that's fine. What I am trying to say is that you haven't been speaking accurately about Zen.

Superiority is an unbalanced state which I try to avoid. I've only spoken generally about Zen. If Zen Buddist tradition is similar to what the Dali Lama practises, I have it on good authority that it is as outdated and psudo-domineering as the Roman Catholic Church and its cousins.

Meditation (of any sort) is one thing. Organized meditation is out-of-balance and down-right-plain-dangerous.

And please don't tell me about how organized, vigilante meditators can save the world. What are they, everyone's Mommy?
 
Last edited:
  • #40
Les Sleeth said:
My experience is, there are many, many willing to teach, but very, very few who actually can both impart the experience and keep one on track until one realizes how to realize the experience for oneself.


So are you saying that the original meaning and practice of Zen meditation could eventually be lost forever, or are these teachings passed down through generations of certain dedicated families.
 
  • #41
Dr.Yes said:
Superiority is an unbalanced state which I try to avoid. I've only spoken generally about Zen. If Zen Buddist tradition is similar to what the Dali Lama practises, I have it on good authority that it is as outdated and psudo-domineering as the Roman Catholic Church and its cousins.

Well, you are making my case for me that you've been talking about something you don't know much about. Besides the fact that modern Tibetan Buddhism is another subject, if you review my posts you will see that I've attempted to describe the origin of Zen--what it originally was--and not anything that's "organized" today. I am as against religion as anyone I know because I believe every time it strays miles from what the original teacher was doing.

That's why, if you read my first post in this thread, I attempted to show that Zen (Ch'an) started out with someone still trying to keep what the Buddha originally taught going (what I called a "preservationist") while the religion of Buddhism had totally overshadowed what little preservationism was left. Most of what people call "zen" today has little to do with the type of serious and lifelong dedication to meditation the Buddha and his faithful were into.

By the way, there were serious meditators within first the early Eastern Greek monasteries and later in the Catholic monasteries (although they called it "prayer" such as prayer of the heart or union prayer). The Catholic monastics appear to have learned this from the Orthodox practitioners, who themselves descended from the desert hermits populating remote areas of Palastine, Egypt, Asia Minor soon after the death of Jesus. The inner practices of these "preservationists," IMO kept the original teaching of Jesus alive for centuries while, again, the Christian religion grew and dominated until today all people think Jesus was about is the dogmatic and fantastic beliefs that represents so much of religion.


Dr.Yes said:
Meditation (of any sort) is one thing. Organized meditation is out-of-balance and down-right-plain-dangerous.

What is "organized meditation"? Meditation is personal, you can't do it "with" someone else even if they happen to be in the same room doing it too.

If you mean organizations set up to promote meditation, then it seems you equate "organized" with evil, but I don't think that's a fair assessment. The Buddha organized a sangha (monastic lifestyle) for people who wanted to give their full attention to inner practice. While devotees had the benefit of his single-pointed focus, the organization served a meditation purpose. But later (after the Buddha's death) when those in charge of the organization started adding religious practices, then the organization started serving a religious purpose. So organization isn't inherently evil, it depends on what the focus is. In the early Ch'an monasteries, it appears the focus was meditation just as it had been with the Buddha. But now, look at all the stuff people are doing in the name of Zen and you can see what the focus is (or isn't).


Dr.Yes said:
And please don't tell me about how organized, vigilante meditators can save the world. What are they, everyone's Mommy?

I haven't said or implied anything of the sort. In my profile you can review every post I've made here, and you will find me always recommending meditation for personal enlightenment, not world enlightenment.
 
  • #42
Simetra7 said:
So are you saying that the original meaning and practice of Zen meditation could eventually be lost forever, or are these teachings passed down through generations of certain dedicated families.

Well, this is a difficult question to answer quickly. To do it right, I have to distinquish between Buddhist meditation, and the practices specific to Ch'an (I'm going to use Ch'an because the Chinese are who developed the practices that later became part of Japanese Zen).

The meditation the Buddha mastered and realized enlightenment through is called samadhi, which means union. It's called union because one's consciousness, normally split into several aspects (intellect, sense data, emotions, etc.) all merge into one single experience. The mind becomes still, and one experiences "oneness" with the whole of reality. This practice involves a series of methods where one learns to recognize the inner brightness of consciousness, its inherent vibrancy, a gentle pulse consciousness has, and a total release from holding or feeling the body. Believe me, it takes practice to get anywhere first because the thinking mind won't let go either of control of consciousness, or of the body.

Letting go becomes a big deal, because as one learns, one realizes that one is surrendering one's self to a greater "something" that will absorb it once one can get the mind to submit (just as Mohammed said). When that absorption happens, that is samadhi/union. Most people think the purpose of meditation is to stop thinking, but it isn't (not samadhi meditation anyway). It's just that thinking prevents absorption; the real goal of samadhi/union meditation is that absorption.

If an individual has the right inner methods, then he can attain union. One can get so good at meditation that he achieves it at every sitting; but alas, the experience fades over the day, so one keeps practicing daily so that the union experience can last through life's hassles. This partial, in and out experience is not enlightenment, which is when someone achieves permanent absorption. When that happens, then that person may go and teach others if the orignal teacher is dead.

So, back to the Ch'an story. What the Buddha did was to achieve permanent union, and then he set up a situation where he could teach. Never in history have students had the opportunity for so much attention from a master. The Buddha taught for 40 years, and as a result quite a few people realized enlightenment. These people (the "preservationists") kept the experience alive, teaching others through the generations, but as the religion of Buddhism grew some went off to teach in more "neutral" settings (i.e., where Buddhism wasn't the dominant thing).

Before China, it appears some Buddhists taught Hindu priests because meditation masters show up there. The great master Kabir claims to have been taught by a Hindu master, and many believe Kabir taught Nanak, who would initiate several generations of serious samadhi meditators before it deteriorated into the Sikh religion. Some say Jesus went to India during his "missing years" and learned union; that would certainly explain the presence of monks and nuns practicing union in monasteries centuries after Jesus' death.

Anyway someone went to China about a thousand years after the Buddha. As usual, a preservationist adjusts his message to fit the beliefs, values and attitudes of his audience (the Buddha, for instance, designed his message for the forest full of ascetics who were his first followers; his "middle way" was a message aimed directly at their severe self-denial practices which were often physically debilitating and even life threatening). The preservationist who went to China, thought to be Bodhidarma, likely found his most enthusiastic followers among Taoists. I say this because you often see in the pecularities of Ch'an the Taoist value of naturalness. This shows up in the best Ch'an koans where students are constantly pressed to experience, and stop maintaining a concept about enlightenment.

I consider Joshu the greatest of all Ch'an masters, someone who meditated for 40 years and waited for his master Nansen's death before teaching. His koans show the naturalness that Taoist understanding seems to have imparted to Ch'an. For example, someone asked Joshu, "Master, where is your mind focused?" Joshu answered, "where there is no design."

"No design," is a what union is like, which is what is practiced first and foremost in meditation. If you know that, then you can see what a true master, someone within the experience himself, is doing when he interacts with students. He is trying to keep them in the "oneness" experience all day. That's how the experience eventually becomes permanent.

Here's another good one (and reflects Taoist influence too):

A monk asked, "Master, what does the enlightened one do?"
Joshu said, "He truly practices the Way."
The monk asked, "Master, do you practice the Way?"
Joshu said, "I put on my robe, I eat my rice."

There is "no design again. The Way is not a concept but the undivided experience of the present. Another example:

A new monk asked, "I have just entered the monastery, and I understand nothing. Please master teach me."
Joshu answered, "Before entering the monastery, you understood even less."

In other words, before you entered the monastery you hadn't heard about the Ch'an concept of being an empty vessel and understanding nothing, but now that concept is in your head which violates "no design." Here's one of my favorites:

A monk asked, "When you do not carry a single thing with you, how is it then?"
Joshu said, "Put it down!"

That is a teaching of no design too. Joshu recognizes the monk is carrying a concept about not carrying concepts instead of being in the experience of no design.

I've tried to show what was really going on FIRST in the original Ch'an, which was samadhi meditation, just like it was with the Buddha's followers. What people now think of as Ch'an or Zen is merely the external techniques used to guide students to stay in the experience. But obviously no student can be guided who hasn't experienced union regularly, yet that is exactly what Zen today has become. It isn't about samadhi (and that's the only kind of meditation to associate with the Buddha), it is about naturalness, and koans, and slapping initiates, etc. It's like trying to drive a car without the motor in it. You aren't going to get anywhere with Zen if you don't have the union experience there that Zen was designed to assist in maintaining.

Now to answer you question. My point has been that I believe preservationists have kept the experience alive throughout the centuries. Samadhi meditation still relies on the same inner methods, but the external methods change with each teacher. I don't see Zen as alive anymore, its time is past. But it I do think it was a great approach because it emphasized, just like how the Buddha taught, the experience and discouraged concepts.

Is there anyone around today qualifed to teach samadhi/union? As I said, I only discuss that in private.
 
  • #43
Les sleeth said:
If an individual has the right inner methods, then he can attain union. One can get so good at meditation that he achieves it at every sitting; but alas, the experience fades over the day, so one keeps practicing daily so that the union experience can last through life's hassles. This partial, in and out experience is not enlightenment, which is when someone achieves permanent absorption. When that happens, then that person may go and teach others if the orignal teacher is dead.

Believe me Les I don't want to insult you or your practices, but I have to respond to this.

Suppose I said "This is a person who has trained his brain to produce a certain result by self-hypnosis, biofeedback or whatever, and the brain produces it by say, a subclinical complex partial seizure such as Zooby has posted about, and now the person can reliably trigger that seizure, whose only perceivable symptom is this experience of oneness (which some epileptics also experience)?" This explanation accounts for the effects and uses only known facts about the brain. How would you respond?
 
  • #44
selfAdjoint said:
Believe me Les I don't want to insult you or your practices, but I have to respond to this.

Suppose I said "This is a person who has trained his brain to produce a certain result by self-hypnosis, biofeedback or whatever, and the brain produces it by say, a subclinical complex partial seizure such as Zooby has posted about, and now the person can reliably trigger that seizure, whose only perceivable symptom is this experience of oneness (which some epileptics also experience)?" This explanation accounts for the effects and uses only known facts about the brain. How would you respond?

You aren't insulting me, so I hope you understand this response.

Suppose I said of the love you feel for your grandaughter, "This is a person who has trained his brain to produce a certain result by self-hypnosis, biofeedback or whatever, and the brain produces it by say, a subclinical complex partial seizure . . . and now the person can reliably trigger that seizure, whose only perceivable symptom is this experience of [grandaughter love]?" Are you ready to buy my theory, based on my own belief system about what a human being is, or do you prefer to trust your experience?

If your theory is that a seizure is at the root of 3000 years of consistant reporting by inner practitioners (and don't you think a seizure would grip the body in tension instead of producing the most total and complete relaxation I've ever experienced?), then it seems to me that should show up on electroencephalagrams, which it hasn't.

You can't dispute a theory that fits the facts, but competing theories can be made to fit the same facts. The only thing one can be sure of is one's experiences. I could go into why brain malfunction doesn't make sense, but you still won't be convinced because you and I can't share facts about the experience. I know it, you don't, so you are free to speculate anything you please about what it is or isn't. But I am constrained by what the experience has taught me. I say it is nothing like a seizure.
 
  • #45
Les Sleeth said:
But I am constrained by what the experience has taught me. I say it is nothing like a seizure.

Have you experienced any seizures?

Actually, whether these transcendent states are related to seizures or not, it is known that the baseline EEG of experienced meditators is different from non-meditators in a marked and predictable way, and various other brain imaging studies have shown distinct neural correlates of transcendent or ecstatic states arising from meditation.
 
  • #46
hypnagogue said:
Actually, whether these transcendent states are related to seizures or not, it is known that the baseline EEG of experienced meditators is different from non-meditators in a marked and predictable way, and various other brain imaging studies have shown distinct neural correlates of transcendent or ecstatic states arising from meditation.

I have seen this said before and never followed it up. Have you any sites where I might learn more about these meditation imaging studies?

And BTW, Les, I am perfectly comfortable with the idea that my love for my granddaughter, along with all my other thoughts and emotions, are the product of brain states. Whether I trained my brain to produce them I don't know - I loved her from the moment I saw her, only minutes after she was born.
 
Last edited:
  • #47
Les Sleeth said:
Well, you are making my case for me that you've been talking about something you don't know much about. Besides the fact that modern Tibetan Buddhism is another subject, if you review my posts you will see that I've attempted to describe the origin of Zen--what it originally was--and not anything that's "organized" today. I am as against religion as anyone I know because I believe every time it strays miles from what the original teacher was doing.

That's why, if you read my first post in this thread, I attempted to show that Zen (Ch'an) started out with someone still trying to keep what the Buddha originally taught going (what I called a "preservationist") while the religion of Buddhism had totally overshadowed what little preservationism was left. Most of what people call "zen" today has little to do with the type of serious and lifelong dedication to meditation the Buddha and his faithful were into.

By the way, there were serious meditators within first the early Eastern Greek monasteries and later in the Catholic monasteries (although they called it "prayer" such as prayer of the heart or union prayer). The Catholic monastics appear to have learned this from the Orthodox practitioners, who themselves descended from the desert hermits populating remote areas of Palastine, Egypt, Asia Minor soon after the death of Jesus. The inner practices of these "preservationists," IMO kept the original teaching of Jesus alive for centuries while, again, the Christian religion grew and dominated until today all people think Jesus was about is the dogmatic and fantastic beliefs that represents so much of religion.




What is "organized meditation"? Meditation is personal, you can't do it "with" someone else even if they happen to be in the same room doing it too.

If you mean organizations set up to promote meditation, then it seems you equate "organized" with evil, but I don't think that's a fair assessment. The Buddha organized a sangha (monastic lifestyle) for people who wanted to give their full attention to inner practice. While devotees had the benefit of his single-pointed focus, the organization served a meditation purpose. But later (after the Buddha's death) when those in charge of the organization started adding religious practices, then the organization started serving a religious purpose. So organization isn't inherently evil, it depends on what the focus is. In the early Ch'an monasteries, it appears the focus was meditation just as it had been with the Buddha. But now, look at all the stuff people are doing in the name of Zen and you can see what the focus is (or isn't).




I haven't said or implied anything of the sort. In my profile you can review every post I've made here, and you will find me always recommending meditation for personal enlightenment, not world enlightenment.

You're right Les, I don't know anything about Zen because I don't practise it. Its like you said, people reading books about Zen don't cut the mustard, what I've heard about Zen doesn't cut the mustard either... you really "got to get some on ya" (Ken Kesey) to know what it is.

I apologize if I mistook you to be a modern day nazi boot camp zen kamindant. You have clearly shown me that you are simply a person who wishes the best for himself and others and offers an example to anyone who shows an interest in doing the same. I'm all for that.

Are you cutting and pasting all this information into this page or do you type at a ferocious speed with perfect accuracy and grammar?
 
  • #48
selfAdjoint said:
I loved her from the moment I saw her, only minutes after she was born.


One of those perfect NOW experiences that makes the world a better place...
 
  • #49
selfAdjoint said:
I have seen this said before and never followed it up. Have you any sites where I might learn more about these meditation imaging studies?
I don't have time to do a web search right now (will try later), but experiments of this sort are described by the researchers in the book .
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #50
hypnagogue said:
Have you experienced any seizures?

Indeed I have not. But the literature is abundant, and even the word seizure is derived from the concept of being "seized," and that is just about exactly opposite of the "release" that occurs in union. If reports about seizures are accurate, then it is easy for me to differentiate what I experience and what's described as a seizure.


hypnagogue said:
Actually, whether these transcendent states are related to seizures or not, it is known that the baseline EEG of experienced meditators is different from non-meditators in a marked and predictable way, and various other brain imaging studies have shown distinct neural correlates of transcendent or ecstatic states arising from meditation.

True. But what if what is being measured only tells what physical effects meditation has on the body? Only if you assume up front that a transcendent state is purely physical can you also assume that the EEG is reflecting all that's going on.
 
  • #51
selfAdjoint said:
I have seen this said before and never followed it up. Have you any sites where I might learn more about these meditation imaging studies?
I couldn't drum up a good all-purpose or review site on these matters, but here's a full paper and an article about the effect of meditation on EEG readings:
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/101/46/16369
Meditation Gives Brain a Charge, Study Finds

You can also find abstracts pertaining to this on PubMed. Entering "meditation eeg" returns 129 results, although "meditation fmri" and "meditation pet" return only 6 and 4 respectively.

I skimmed through the first chapter of Why God Won't Go Away and the writers mention research where they use PET to scan the brains of experienced meditators just as the meditators tug on a string to indicate that they are at the peak of their experience. The scan showed that during this experience, activity in the posterior superior parietal lobe (what the authors call "orientation association area" or "OAA") was significantly inhibited compared to baseline. One function of OAA is to help us orient our bodies in space and navigate through the world safely and coherently, and part of carrying out this function involves drawing an implicit boundary between the body/self and the external world. The authors propose, then, that decreased activity in OAA may be what is responsible for consistent reports that during peak meditative experiences, the self seems to 'dissolve' and become one with the entire universe. Because the OAA is being inhibited, no body/self boundaries can be drawn, and so the self is experienced as if it indeed has no boundaries.
 
  • #52
hypnagogue said:
I skimmed through the first chapter of Why God Won't Go Away and the writers mention research where they use PET to scan the brains of experienced meditators just as the meditators tug on a string to indicate that they are at the peak of their experience. The scan showed that during this experience, activity in the posterior superior parietal lobe (what the authors call "orientation association area" or "OAA") was significantly inhibited compared to baseline. One function of OAA is to help us orient our bodies in space and navigate through the world safely and coherently, and part of carrying out this function involves drawing an implicit boundary between the body/self and the external world. The authors propose, then, that decreased activity in OAA may be what is responsible for consistent reports that during peak meditative experiences, the self seems to 'dissolve' and become one with the entire universe. Because the OAA is being inhibited, no body/self boundaries can be drawn, and so the self is experienced as if it indeed has no boundaries.

Or . . . the OAA is one way consciousness is connected to the body, and a meditator's disassociation from the brain shows itself there.

What has become interesting to me is how clearly I can see the physicalist a priori assumption in all the brain research and subsequent theorizing, abiogenesis theory, and all evolution only by way of genetic variation and natural selection. Those theorizing have already decided that only a physical explanation is possible.

Lately I've been rereading my favorite books on evolution, plus perusing the net looking for the lastest finds. What is it that evolutionists claim evolution has done? Well, in 600 million years it has evolved most of the life forms that we see. That life includes some extremely complex organs, including the human brain.

What's the evidence that mutating genes can provide the variety of traits needed for nature to select in 600 million years (which includes a couple of mass extinctions) what's needed to produce a human brain? Well, there is none. What there is evidence of is that genetic variation and natural selection can make superficial changes to an extant organism. There is also genetic evidence that all life is related, so it is logical to infer life developed through genetic changes. What is missing, however, is evidence that self-directed genetic variation, naturally selected, can produce an organism. What you see in the record is bursts of creative genetic change that result in new organisms, followed by millions of years of relative stasis in surviving species. I say "relative stasis" because it's proven species can be modified superficially by genetic variation and natural selection.

There is not enough evidence to say that the force of genetic variation and natural selection alone can create an organism, or even an organ! Genetic variation and natural selection is far too puny, in terms of what we can actually observe, to at this time say it can do it without some sort of additional principle, force, process, etc.

So when reading evolutinary theory what you get is tons of information about simple speciation (because that's all we can observe), and then TONS and TONS of "the model predicts . . ." to fill in the huge evidentiary gaps needed prove genetic variation and natural selection can create an organism. This is exactly what physicalists have done with abiogenesis. They get a few proteins to self organize and then claim they've all but proven life started that way. Brain researchers see the brain respond to conscious activity and assume, without hesitation, that the brain is causing consciousness; it couldn't possibly be that consciousness is entwined with the brain somehow so there is correspondence.

It doesn't have to be true consciousness isn't physical, or that some creationary consciousness has been able to manipulate genes during key phases of evolution. But it doesn't have to be untrue either. Yet to the physicalists, they say "we can find no evidence of a creationary consciousness, all we find is physical stuff." But they also won't acknowledge they are only looking for physical stuff and what supports their beliefs, that they will only accept physical evidence and physical theories for the gaps in evidence, and that they exaggerate the significance of evidence they do have. Nobody in the physicalist camp admits what they are doing.

To get right, all they'd have to do is say is that they observe a small degree of self organization, they observe genetic variation and natural selection producing relatively superficial changes to extant organisms, and they have found correspondence between consciousness and brain activity. Beyond that, they don't actually know anything.

So why the incessant huge leaps to "physicalness has done it all" if physicalists are just trying to prove their theory (which would be fine), and really don't have an anti-spiritual agenda? Why treat doubters like they are too stupid to understand if there is no a priori assumption that physicalness alone is the orgin of all?

To me what's stupid is watching someone take apart a once living thing elegantly organized to function with near perfection as a self-sustaining system, describe all the relationships between the parts correctly as chemical, and then stand in the clutter of their disassembled life form and say, "See, mere chemistry." Now that is stupid.
 
Last edited:
  • #53
Les Sleeth said:
But what if what is being measured only tells what physical effects meditation has on the body? Only if you assume up front that a transcendent state is purely physical can you also assume that the EEG is reflecting all that's going on.

Here are some of the results of MRI and other studies on meditators and a brief overview of the benefits of meditation from http://www.channel4.com/health/microsites/C/comp_medicine/meditation.html

Meditation

what is it?

For thousands of years meditation has been an important spiritual practice among Buddhists, Islamic Sufis, Christian mystics and other religious groups. But as recent research demonstrates its benefits for mental and physical well-being, efforts are underway to demystify and secularise the practice. Different schools of meditation favour different techniques, but all share a common basis: a focus of attention to which the mind can return if distracted.

what it's supposed to do

Professor Herbert Benson of the Mind/Body Institute of Harvard Medical School developed what he calls the 'Relaxation Response' after studying transcendental meditation practitioners in the 1970s. He found that simply sitting in a quiet place for about 20 minutes and concentrating on the breath or a particular word or phrase can reverse the physiological changes produced by stress. (In theory a word plucked at random from the telephone book will do, but most people seem to prefer something with a spiritual connotation.) Blood pressure, heart and breathing rates, metabolism and muscle tension are reduced, and the brain slips into a slower, calmer rhythm.

Meditation is commonly recommended to relieve stress and anxiety, high blood pressure, headache, migraine, fatigue, depression, insomnia, chronic pain, to overcome addictions, to enhance the immune system and for personal development.

what happens

Whatever approach is used, you will probably need a quiet environment where you won't be disturbed, a comfortable position (the lotus position is not obligatory but lying down can send you to sleep; many people like to sit upright in a chair), and a focus for your mind. The usual advice is 15-20 minutes meditation once or twice a day, before a meal when you won't be distracted by a full stomach.

The aim is to achieve a state of 'passive awareness', alert but detached from everyday surroundings. Whenever the mind wanders, draw it calmly back to the focus of meditation. Breathing is slow and regular so that the abdomen rises and falls gently.

The focus of meditation may be the rhythm of your breathing, a mantra (a word or phrase that is repeated continually, either silently or aloud), a physical object such as a candle flame or religious icon, a positive affirmation, feelings of loving kindness, visualising a sacred figure, or (for those who find it difficult to sit still) a repetitive movement, as in walking or t'ai chi. The Buddhist technique of vipassana or 'mindfulness', is defined as 'moment-to-moment non-judgmental awareness', or paying attention to whatever feelings or actions one is experiencing at the time.

what's the evidence?

Followers of transcendental meditation (TM), who work with an allocated mantra, have carried out extensive studies, though not always of a high quality. But recent trials published in Stroke in 2000 and The American Journal of Cardiology in 1996 and 2000 show that TM can reduce atherosclerosis and the risk of heart disease.

A form of meditation known as sahaja yoga, based on yogic breathing exercises, was found to help people with severe asthma, according to an Australian study in Thorax in 2002.

Research into an adaptation of the Buddhist technique of 'mindfulness' led by Dr Jon Kabat-Zinn at the University of Massachusetts Medical School, shows relief for symptoms of heart disease, chronic pain, irritable bowel syndrome, high blood pressure, headaches, anxiety and panic, cancer, AIDS, stress and chronic fatigue syndrome. Patients also claimed to have more energy, confidence, 'enthusiasm for life', and be more able to deal with stressful situations.

When combined with cognitive therapy (which aims to change unhelpful beliefs and thoughts), mindfulness meditation halved the risk of relapse for people with a history of clinical depression, according to a recent Medical Research Council study in Cambridge.

Neurobiologists have used positive emission topography (PET) scans and functional MRI scans to study what happens in the brain during meditation. Results indicate that different areas of the brain are involved than when merely resting, and suggest the mind can control the autonomic nervous system, which regulates involuntary body functions like respiration and circulation.

precautions

Go to the safety first section of 'before you start' for some general precautions to take into account when considering a complementary therapy.

* Check with your doctor before starting meditation if you have a history of psychiatric problems.

I have promoted and observed relaxation programs that were used in Cancer Institutes and that boosted the survival rates among patients to higher levels than those among patients not using meditation and relaxation as a complimentary treatment program. The rise in survival rates was significant to more than 20% above a 40-45 % level.

As far as I know today, relaxation programs for cancer patients have been scaled back by "budget concerns" and jealous pharmaceutical companies. The cost of a relaxation program equals the salary of two neurolinguists and some foam mats for the floor.
 
Last edited:
  • #54
Like you, Les, I am constantly amazed at the huge leaps made in physicalist's claims.
I am also confounded when they see that the brain does exactly what it is expected to do in meditation, near death, out of body or any other phenomena and then claim that it is the physical brain that is both the source and sole cause for these apparent effects and the one experiencing these things are simply deluded.

Again it is the cart before the horse, confusing effect for cause . I ask why they would expect anything else other than to see corresponding brain activity to any experience whether spiritual, mystical or common everyday experience.
 
Last edited:
  • #55
Les Sleeth said:
What has become interesting to me is how clearly I can see the physicalist a priori assumption in all the brain research and subsequent theorizing, abiogenesis theory, and all evolution only by way of genetic variation and natural selection. Those theorizing have already decided that only a physical explanation is possible.

Not at all. Nobody said it was the only explanation, just that it was a SUFFICIENT explanation. It accounts for the facts and doesn't require special pleading.
 
  • #56
Pages and pages of concepts trying to decide what zen is or what zen practice is and who should teach it . Zen and zen practice or zazen can be taught in a sentence. Sit and breath, learn to quiet your thoughts. No one can teach you to the goal. Its nothing more than learning to be quiet by being quiet so you can see the world for what it is, rather than what you think it is.
 
  • #57
Vossistarts said:
Pages and pages of concepts trying to decide what zen is or what zen practice is and who should teach it . Zen and zen practice or zazen can be taught in a sentence. Sit and breath, learn to quiet your thoughts. No one can teach you to the goal. Its nothing more than learning to be quiet by being quiet so you can see the world for what it is, rather than what you think it is.


Learn to quiet your thoughts...This is very much easier to say than it is to do. Thoughts have a tendency to just keep on flowing, and for most people, learning specific techniques is the only way to achieve that quiet state from where they can then progress in their practice.
 
  • #58
selfAdjoint said:
Not at all. Nobody said it was the only explanation, just that it was a SUFFICIENT explanation. It accounts for the facts and doesn't require special pleading.

But, my friend, it doesn't really account for the design principles (and I am not talking about a designer, just the quality of organization of living things).

When you say "it accounts for the facts," IMO you are saying it explains the relationship between parts. As long as we stay on the level of looking at how things are linked up, a physicalist explanation works perfectly. My frustration here has been trying to get anyone to look at the quality of organization of those physical connections that leads to life. That quality contrasts about as dramatically as anything can from how physicalness operates outside of living things.

If you saw how Bystander debated me in the ID thread, when I complained about the lack of an explanation for organizational quality, he came back at me every time with more details about the purely mechanistic relationship between the components of life (which I've never disputed). In my years of debating here, possibly one person on the physicalist side has ever admitted to a problem with the self-organizing principle (Eh).

When I debate the physicalist, they typically try to overwhelm me with details about the purely physical nature of component interconnections. In that area, the evidence we already have is all that's needed for a proof. There is no dispute there! Those rare times I get anyone to address the organizational issues, all I hear is the Miller-Urey experiment, etc., the natural selection-genetic variation stop gap, and brain studies showing a correlation between brain activity and consciousness.

The contrast between the HUGE amount work done to illustrate physical component relationships and the ridiculously tiny amount of work done to account for organizational quality stands out like a sore thumb.

So that's why my opinion is that relationship-between-parts experts can become blinded by their own expertise. They look so exclusively at one thing they come to think that's all there is.
 
  • #59
Simetra7 said:
Learn to quiet your thoughts...This is very much easier to say than it is to do. Thoughts have a tendency to just keep on flowing, and for most people, learning specific techniques is the only way to achieve that quiet state from where they can then progress in their practice.

You are right. It is very difficult to quiet the mind. Maybe you'll tolerate an analogy.

I make pizza, and if you haven't made it you might not know that the dough is the absolute most difficult aspect to master, especially in home kitchens where people may not have the right equipment.

You can easily find tons of pizza recipes online or in books, but they don't reveal the secrets of the dough. Those secrets are in the possession of bakers, passed down from centuries of breadmaking, who have reduced the variables to a science. Once you master the science, only then you can be an artist.

The majority of home pizza makers just do the easy popular thing, so that's the common knowledge. But pizza nuts who get into it find out things like the importance of the final temperature to yeast action, hydration effects, enzymes ability to develop the dough, what refrigeration of the dough overnight does, the effect of oil on guten development . . . and so much more. Learn it all and you can really get into the art of dough-making.

Well, meditation has a popular version and the science-leading-to-art version. The popular stuff says just sit and breathe, or repeat a mantra, or stare at a candle, or count sheep. There is a lot more to it.

It isn't more "complicated" than sit and breathe, it is just more accurate. My favorite meditation thought for the day is to explain that the mind isn't stilled by any sort of effort to stop the mind. Rather, there is something inside of us that is already perfectly still. Learning how to find that is the first part of the secret; the second part is to submit to that stillness. When that happens, that which is still automatically and naturally stops that which is incessantly moving (the mind). My experience has been that finding the still place is hard, but mastering submission to it is a lifelong endeavor.
 
  • #60
There seems to be some misunderstanding here about meditation. Focusing on an image mental or physical, focusing on our breathing or counting our breathes, quieting our minds are exercises by which we learn to find that quiet place within us all that Les mentioned above. and learn to listen and observe with our being. Only then do we without effort or intention slip into the meditative state of consciousness. We do not try to meditate nor learn to meditate. Trying and learning are doing something and doing something is the antithesis of meditation. Doing nothing is not meditation either; however, only by learning to quieten our minds of the constant chatter and random thoughts and images that we get hung up on and get carried away with, then finding that quiet place and doing nothing, can our consciousness automatically assume the meditative state. Then and only then are we actually meditating.

All the rest, all the techniques, the images and focusing are exercises by which we learn and train ourselves to come to the mental quietness necessary to allow meditation to happen. We benefit tremendously both mentally and physically by doing these exercises but it is not meditation. Once there, once finally quiet and in our center we begin meditating. It takes months if not years to train ourselves to achieve this quiet, doing nothing state. Once there meditation occurs on its own without effort or intention, without trying or focusing. When we finally reach the meditative state we do not know it or are aware of it until after the fact. It is very much like an "Oops, I did something right." experience.

This "oops" unintentional uncontrolled experience is the very essence of Zen thinking, martial and creative arts such as flower arranging, the tea ceremony, and calligraphy. It is doing without thinking, without analyzing. Seeing instantly what is necessary and doing it automatically. Golfers call it getting out of their own way and trusting there swing. We call it being in the moment and doing what come naturally. One aspect of this is that if what we are trying to do is proving to be difficult then we are not doing it the right way.

There are many levels of meditation. Deep meditation is when we become completely disassociated with our bodies and become "one with the universe", "one with the universal consciousness." There are many "places" that we may go during deep meditation, one is the Light, another the Void and another the Circle (of consciousness). There are many hang-ups and distractions alone the way. We can only work our way through these. There is a reason why we get hung-up and distracted and we will not move on until we are ready. It is a guided tour not random meandering around where we will. There is no danger and we are never alone. We may be afraid or reluctant to proceed, to go thru the door but we will never be forced or pushed. When we are ready the door will open again and we will go through without hesitation or thought and only later will we realize that we went through and wonder what all the fuss was about.

The ultimate result of meditation is enlightenment, the complete enlightenment reached by Buddha, becoming a Buddha ourselves, actualizing and becoming one with the Buddha within us all. In the Western Judeo-Christian religion it is actualizing our souls and becoming one with our God that is within us all.

[A bit aside:
I think this feeling of never being alone, of being gently and patiently led without feeling led, of seeing and feeling purpose, intent and direction in all that is, is one of the reasons that we so called mystics are so adamant that there is more, so much more to the universe, to life, to consciousness and to evolution than just the physical. There is a pattern, a purpose, an intent, a direction to all that is; and, all that is, is one, one universe, one consciousness, one reality. It becomes so obvious, so right, so true that we despair when others cannot and will not see it but cling desperately and stubbornly to their rock of physicalism and determinism, denying to the death, sometimes even violently that there is or can be anything else. As the saying goes;" Me thinks the Lady doth protest too much." As with all fundamentalist they cling to their paradigm, not allowing the least little bit of doubt to creep in lest their whole mind set, belief structure, come crumbling and shattering down leaving them no place to stand, no place to set their feet. They fear that this way leads to insanity, to chaos.

Know this: Sanity appears insane to the insane. Reason appears unreasonable to the unreasonable. Truth appears as lies to those living untruth and unwilling to accept or acknowledge the Truth. Reality appears unreal, illusion, delusion to the unreal. This is why the eastern mystics say that the physical world is illusion. It is not illusion as I know that there is one reality and all that is, is of that one reality. If it is, it is real. The physical world, universe, is real. It is a part of, a subset of, all that is, of all of reality. When looked at by the "mystics" it may be a small and insignificant part of reality; but, it is real.

This is in no way meant as a condemnation or even criticism. It is simply an observation by one who has been there, done that, got the tee shirt and the tattoo.]
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
5K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
Replies
204
Views
39K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
5K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K