Finding determinant through Gaussian elimination

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the process of finding the determinant of a matrix using Gaussian elimination, specifically focusing on the implications of switching rows during this process. Participants explore the effects of row swaps on the determinant and the methods for calculating it.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether switching rows requires multiplying the determinant by -1 each time, seeking clarification on the rules governing row swaps.
  • Another participant suggests that switching rows affects the determinant but does not clarify the implications for the specific elimination process being discussed.
  • A different participant asserts that swapping rows always multiplies the determinant by -1, providing a detailed example of how this affects the calculation of the determinant through expansion by minors.
  • Some participants argue that the original poster's approach complicates the elimination process and does not lead to an upper triangular form, which is typically desired for easier determinant calculation.
  • There is mention of an alternative method for finding the determinant of a 3x3 matrix using the Sarrus rule, which is noted as a simpler approach.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity and impact of switching rows during Gaussian elimination. While some agree on the rule that row swaps affect the determinant, there is no consensus on the best method for calculating the determinant in this context.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the efficiency of row switching in the context of Gaussian elimination, and the discussion includes various approaches to calculating the determinant without reaching a definitive conclusion on the preferred method.

purplecows
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If I switch 2 rows, do I have to multiple by -1 each time?

For example, I have

0%20%26%20-1%5C%5C%203%20%26%201%20%26%201%5C%5C%200%20%26%20-1%20%26%20-1%20%5Cend%7Bvmatrix%7D.gif


If I switch row 2 and 3, will it become this:
0%20%26%20-1%5C%5C%200%20%26%20-1%20%26%20-1%5C%5C%203%20%26%201%20%26%201%20%5Cend%7Bvmatrix%7D.gif

Or this?
0%20%26%20-1%5C%5C%200%20%26%20-1%20%26%20-1%5C%5C%203%20%26%201%20%26%201%20%5Cend%7Bvmatrix%7D.gif


Each time I make a switch, do I have to also put a negative sign?

Edit: Not really related to Gaussian elimination, but this is from a Gaussian elimination problem; I just wanted to know whether I have to put a negative each time I make the switch.
 
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It's not clear what switching rows does for you in terms of finding the determinant of this matrix.

Using the original matrix, you would want to eliminate element a21 = 3 first. After that, you can work on eliminating a32, leaving you with an upper triangular matrix. The determinant of an upper triangular matrix is easy to calculate.

FYI, the elementary row operations affect the determinant as discussed in the following article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_elimination

See the section 'Computing determinants' under Applications.
 
Actually, it is "clear what switching rows does for you in terms of finding the determinant of this matrix."

Anytime you swap two rows in a determinant, you multiply the determinant by -1.

In this case, the original determinant is \left|\begin{array}{ccc}2 & 0 & -1 \\ 3 & 1 & 1 \\ 0 & -1 & -1 \end{array}\right|. If you "expand by minors" on the first row, you get 2\left|\begin{array}{cc}1 & 1 \\ -1 & -1\end{array}\right|- 1\left|\begin{array}{cc} 3 & 1 \\ 0 & -1\end{array}\right|= 2(-1+ 1)- (-3)= 3

Switching the first two rows you get \left|\begin{array}{ccc}3 & 1 & 1 \\ 2 & 0 & -1 \\ 0 & -1 & -1 \end{array}\right|. If you "expand by minors" on the second row, you get exactly the same thing except that, because your leading coefficients are from the second row, their sign is changed: -2\left|\begin{array}{cc}1 & 1 \\ -1 & -1\end{array}\right|+ 1\left|\begin{array}{cc} 3 & 1 \\ 0 & -1\end{array}\right|= -2(-1+ 1)+ (-3)= -3.

Switching the first and third rows and expanding on the third row will give you almost exactly the same thing. This time the leading coefficients will be the same as the first time but the two rows in the sub-determinants are reversed, reversing the sign there:
\left|\begin{array}{ccc}0 & -1 & -1\\ 3 & 1 & 1 \\ 2 & 0 & -1 \end{array}\right|. If you "expand by minors" on the third row, you get 2\left|\begin{array}{cc}-1 & -1 \\ 1 & 1\end{array}\right|- 1\left|\begin{array}{cc} 0 & -1 \\ 3 & 1\end{array}\right|= 2(-1+ 1)- (3)= -3
 
HallsofIvy said:
Actually, it is "clear what switching rows does for you in terms of finding the determinant of this matrix."

That's fine, but the OP wanted to find the determinant of the matrix by using elimination, not by expanding minors. Switching rows as he did originally did not make his transformed matrix closer to upper triangular form; it complicated the elimination by adding extra steps.

To find the determinant of a 3x3 matrix is a trivial exercise anyway; one can always calculate the determinant using the formula of Sarrus.
 

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