Finding the string tension and acceleration of a yo-yo.

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Homework Help Overview

The problem involves a yo-yo consisting of two disks and a massless string, with the goal of determining the string tension and acceleration during its descent and ascent. The setup assumes the shaft is massless and the string is vertical.

Discussion Character

  • Mixed

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to derive the inertia tensor using integrals and tensor calculus, while some participants suggest simplifying the problem by using basic torque and force balance principles.
  • Participants question the definition and role of the variable 'a' in the calculations, with some suggesting it complicates the setup unnecessarily.
  • There is a discussion about the moment of inertia, with differing opinions on whether to treat the yo-yo as two disks or a solid cylinder.
  • Some participants express confusion about the relevance of tensors in this context, suggesting that a simpler approach may be more appropriate.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants exploring different interpretations of the problem setup and the calculations involved. Some guidance has been offered regarding the moment of inertia and the use of tensors, but no consensus has been reached on the best approach.

Contextual Notes

There are indications of missing definitions and assumptions, particularly regarding the variable 'a' and the treatment of the yo-yo's structure. Participants are also navigating the complexities of using tensor calculus versus simpler methods.

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Homework Statement



A yo-yo of mass M is composed of two disks of radius R separated by a shaft of radius r. A
massless string is would on the shaft, and the loose end is held in the hand. Upon release the
yo-yo descends until the string is unwound. The string the begins to rewind, and the yo-yo
climbs. Find the string tension and acceleration of the yo-yo in descent and ascent. Neglect the
mass of the shaft and assume the shaft radius is sufficiently small so that the string is essentially
vertical.


Homework Equations



J_{ij}=\int_{V}[\rho(r)\delta_{ij}\sum_{k}x_{k}^2-x_ix_j]dV

I_{ij}=J_{ij}-M[\delta_{ij}\sum_{k}a_{k}^2-a_ia_j]

L_i=\sum_{j}I_{ij}\omega_{j}

The Attempt at a Solution



Setup: First I'll define the x_3 axis to be the axis of rotation of the yo-yo. Then \vec{\omega} will have the components \begin{pmatrix}0\\0\\\omega_{3}\end{pmatrix}. Now I need to find \mathbb{I} in order to find \vec{L}. Finally, because I can neglect the mass of the small shaft I will be calculating the inertia tensor of a solid cylinder.

Calculation: Using J_{ij}=\int_{V}[\rho(r)\delta_{ij}\sum_{k}x_{k}^2-x_ix_j]dV I'll find the inertia tensor at the bottom of the cylinder. So I'll need the volume of the region in question:

0\leq z\leq a, 0\leq r\leq R, 0\leq \theta\leq 2\pi

Case 1) \delta_{ij}=1 \Rightarrow J_{ii}=\int_{0}^{a}\int_{0}^{2\pi}\int_{0}^{R}[x_1^2+x_2^2+x_3^2-x_i^2]rdrd\theta dz

where x_1 = rcos(\theta), x_2 = rsin(\theta), x_3 =z

i=1; \rightarrow J_{11}=\rho\int_{0}^{a}\int_{0}^{2\pi}\int_{0}^{R}[(rsin(\theta))^2+(z)^2]rdrd\theta dz = \rho\int_{0}^{a}\int_{0}^{2\pi}[\frac{R^4sin^2(\theta)}{4}+\frac{R^2z^2}{2}]d\theta dz = \rho\int_{0}^{a}[\frac{\pi R^4}{4}+2\pi \frac{R^2z^2}{2}]dz
= \rho[\frac{a\pi R^4}{4}+\frac{\pi R^2a^3}{3}] \rightarrow<br /> M\frac{\frac{a\pi R^4}{4}+\frac{\pi R^2a^3}{3}}{a\pi R^2} = \frac{MR^2}{4}+\frac{Ma^2}{3}

i=2; the only that changes in this calculation is that sin(\theta) becomes cos(\theta). Since \int_{0}^{2\pi}sin^2(\theta)d\theta = \int_{0}^{2\pi}cos^2(\theta)d\theta \Rightarrow J_{11}=J_{22}

i=3; \rightarrow J_{11}=\rho\int_{0}^{a}\int_{0}^{2\pi}\int_{0}^{R}[(r)^2]rdrd\theta dz = \rho\int_{0}^{a}\int_{0}^{2\pi}[\frac{R^4}{4}]d\theta dz = \rho\int_{0}^{a}[2\pi\frac{R^4}{4}]dz
= \rho[\frac{a\pi R^4}{2}] \rightarrow M\frac{\frac{a\pi R^4}{2}}{a\pi R^2} = \frac{MR^2}{2}

Case 2)\delta_{ij}=0 \Rightarrow J_{ij}=\int_{0}^{a}\int_{0}^{2\pi}\int_{0}^{R}[-x_ix_j]rdrd\theta dz

i=1,j=2 \rightarrow \int_{0}^{a}\int_{0}^{2\pi}\int_{0}^{R}[-r^2cos(\theta)sin(\theta)]rdrd\theta dz = \frac{1}{2}\int_{0}^{2\pi}sin(2\theta)d\theta[\int_{0}^{a}\int_{0}^{R}[-r^3]dr dz] = 0

i=1,j=3 \rightarrow \int_{0}^{a}\int_{0}^{2\pi}\int_{0}^{R}[-rcos(\theta)z]rdrd\theta dz = \int_{0}^{2\pi}cos(\theta)d\theta[\int_{0}^{a}\int_{0}^{R}[-zr^2]dr dz] = 0

i=2,j=3 \rightarrow \int_{0}^{a}\int_{0}^{2\pi}\int_{0}^{R}[-rsin(\theta)z]rdrd\theta dz = \int_{0}^{2\pi}sin(\theta)d\theta[\int_{0}^{a}\int_{0}^{R}[-zr^2]dr dz] = 0 <br />

So \mathbb{J}=\begin{pmatrix}\frac{MR^2}{4}+\frac{Ma^2}{3}&amp;0&amp;0\\0&amp;\frac{MR^2}{4}+\frac{Ma^2}{3}&amp;0\\0&amp;0&amp;\frac{MR^2}{2}\end{pmatrix}

Now I want to find the inertia tensor about the center of mass \mathbb{I}. Using I_{ij}=J_{ij}-M\delta_{ij}\sum_{k}a_{k}^2-a_ia_j where \vec{a} = \begin{pmatrix}0\\0\\-\frac{a}{2}\end{pmatrix}

Case 1) \delta_{ij}=1 \rightarrow I_{ij}=J_{ij}-M[a_1^2+a_2^2+a_3^2-a_i^2]

i=1; I_{11}=J_{11}-M[a_2^2+a_3^2] \rightarrow I_{11} = \frac{MR^2}{4}+\frac{Ma^2}{3}-M\frac{a^2}{4} = \frac{MR^2}{4}+\frac{Ma^2}{12} = M\frac{3R^2+a^2}{12}

i=2; I_{22} =J_{22}-M[a_1^2+a_3^2] \rightarrow I_{22} = \frac{MR^2}{4}+\frac{Ma^2}{3}-M\frac{a^2}{4} = \frac{MR^2}{4}+\frac{Ma^2}{12} = M\frac{3R^2+a^2}{12}

i=3; I_{33} = J_{33}-M[a_1^2+a_2^2] \rightarrow I_{33}=J_{33}

Case 2) \delta_{ij}=0 \rightarrow I_{ij}=J_{ij}+M[a_ia_j] since j≠i \Rightarrow I_{ij} = J_{ij} Since the only non-zero component of \vec{a} is a_3.

Therefore: \mathbb{I} = \begin{pmatrix}M\frac{3R^2+a^2}{12}&amp;0&amp;0\\0&amp;M\frac{3R^2+a^2}{12}&amp;0\\0&amp;0&amp;\frac{MR^2}{2}\end{pmatrix}

Then: \vec{L}=\mathbb{I}\vec{\omega} \rightarrow \begin{pmatrix}L_1\\L_2\\L_3\end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix}M\frac{3R^2+a^2}{12}&amp;0&amp;0\\0&amp;M\frac{3R^2+a^2}{12}&amp;0\\0&amp;0&amp;\frac{MR^2}{2}\end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix}0\\0\\\omega_3\end{pmatrix}

Clearly the only non-zero component of \vec{L} is L_3 = \frac{MR^2}{2}\omega_3 So what is \omega_3? its the angular velocity \dot{\theta} about the x_3 axis so:

\vec{L} = \begin{pmatrix}0\\0\\\frac{MR^2}{2}\dot{\theta}\end{pmatrix}. Also I know that \vec{\omega} is parallel to \vec{L} so \frac{\partial \vec{L}}{\partial t}_{inertial} =\frac{\partial \vec{L}}{\partial t}_{body}=\vec{\tau} And \dot{\vec{L}} = \begin{pmatrix}0\\0\\\frac{MR^2}{2}\ddot{\theta}\end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix}\tau_1\\\tau_2\\\tau_3\end{pmatrix}

At this point I think I should look at the sum of the forces and torques on the yo-yo but I'm not quite sure, and I'd like to make sure the above work is correct before moving forward. Thanks for your help in advance.
 
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I think you may be making this way more complicated than it needs to be. First off, you haven't defined this mysterious 'a' length. If I am understanding this setup correctly, all motion is restricted to a plane, so you don't really have to worry about any tensors. The moment of inertia should just be that of two disks, i.e. I=2(1/2MR^2)=MR^2. All you really need to solve this problem is torque and force balance.
 
tman12321 said:
I think you may be making this way more complicated than it needs to be. First off, you haven't defined this mysterious 'a' length. If I am understanding this setup correctly, all motion is restricted to a plane, so you don't really have to worry about any tensors. The moment of inertia should just be that of two disks, i.e. I=2(1/2MR^2)=MR^2. All you really need to solve this problem is torque and force balance.

I know it seems i made it more complicated, but I need practice in setting up the more general case i.e dealing with tensors. Oh and the \vec{a} is the vector pointing from the center of mass to the origin of the body-frame coordinates. Oh and a quick question: why is the moment of inertia of two disks instead of one solid cylinder if the thin shaft joining both parts of the yo-yo is massless?
 
The moment of inertia is that of two disks because, if you neglect the mass of the axle, that's what a yo-yo is made out of: two disks with empty space between them. Also, if that's what 'a' is, then your integrals don't make any sense. The center of mass should be your origin, right between the two disks, so |a|=0. If you really want practice with tensors, do the problem first using simple equations, and then if you must, go back and redo it with tensors.
 
tman12321 said:
The moment of inertia is that of two disks because, if you neglect the mass of the axle, that's what a yo-yo is made out of: two disks with empty space between them. Also, if that's what 'a' is, then your integrals don't make any sense. The center of mass should be your origin, right between the two disks, so |a|=0. If you really want practice with tensors, do the problem first using simple equations, and then if you must, go back and redo it with tensors.

Okay I see what you're saying about the moment of inertia, but a is the height of the cylinder, but \vec{a} is the vector that points from the center of mass to the origin which is originally at the bottom of the cylinder( I know it was bad notation) I should have called the upper limit in my integral h but the tensor i got is correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_moments_of_inertia
 
What cylinder? You have two disks. Their moments of inertia depend only the the mass and the radius.
 
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tman12321 said:
What cylinder? You have two disks. Their moments of inertia depend only the the mass and the radius.

I was thinking that the two parts of the yo-yo had thickness but I went back and re-read the problem and it did say disks.
 
Wavefunction said:
I was thinking that the two parts of the yo-yo had thickness but I went back and re-read the problem and it did say disks.

But I could just take the limit as h goes to zero which would give me the inertia tensor for a disk, correct?
 
As I said before, the moment of inertia of a disk depends only on its mass and its radius.
 

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