First Central Moment: Proving Intuitive Equality

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the first central moment of a real-valued function, specifically the equality involving integrals that represent this moment. Participants explore the conditions under which this equality holds, particularly in the context of probability distributions and the manipulation of integrals.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states the first central moment is defined as the integral of the difference between a variable and its mean, suggesting it equals zero intuitively.
  • Another participant challenges the validity of the proposed equality, claiming it is not true without certain conditions being met.
  • A later reply clarifies that the function f(x) should be a probability distribution for the equality to hold, emphasizing the requirement that the integral of f(x) equals one.
  • One participant expresses confusion about manipulating integrals that contain other integrals, seeking clarification on when an inner integral can be treated as a constant.
  • Another participant explains that the inner integral can be treated as a number when it does not depend on the outer variable, referencing Fubini's theorem.
  • Further discussion arises regarding the conditions under which an inner integral is "just a number," with participants providing examples to illustrate their points.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the validity of the initial equality. There are competing views regarding the conditions necessary for the equality to hold, particularly concerning the nature of the function f(x) and the treatment of integrals.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions made about the function f(x) and the conditions under which the integrals can be manipulated. The discussion highlights the dependence on definitions and the need for clarity in mathematical expressions.

gnome
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The "first central moment" of a real-valued function

[tex]\mu_1 \equiv \int_{-\infty}^\infty (x - \mu) f(x)\,dx = 0[/tex]

where

[tex]\mu \equiv \int_{-\infty}^\infty x\, f(x)\,dx[/tex]

so we have

[tex]\int_{-\infty}^\infty (x - \left ( \int_{-\infty}^\infty x\, f(x)\,dx \right ) ) f(x)\,dx = 0[/tex]

Intuitively, it seems to make sense, but how do we manipulate those integrals to prove this equality?
 
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This equality, as you have expressed it, is not true. I can easily come up with a counterexample. There are at least a couple of things you can change to make a true equality.

This looks like homework. You need to show some work before people here will help you.
 
D H said:
This equality, as you have expressed it, is not true. I can easily come up with a counterexample. There are at least a couple of things you can change to make a true equality.

This looks like homework. You need to show some work before people here will help you.

1. It's not homework.

2. Perhaps I should have specified that f(x) is a probability distribution. As for it not being true, I have read it in a number of places such as
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Moment.html
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_(mathematics)
and elsewhere.

The the reason I posted the question is that I realized that I have no idea how to manipulate an integral that contains an integral as part of the integrand, so trying to "show some work" would be pointless. If you know how, I would appreciate any help or examples of how to handle such a function.
 
gnome said:
Perhaps I should have specified that f(x) is a probability distribution.

Perhaps you should have. You said [itex]f(x)[/itex] is a real-valued function. The relation is true only if [itex]\int_{-\infty}^{\infty}f(x)dx = 1[/itex].

Use the fact that f(x) has unit area.
 
Sorry, I still don't see it.

I want to show that

[tex]\int_{-\infty}^\infty x f(x)\,dx = \int_{-\infty}^\infty \left(\int_{-\infty}^\infty x\, f(x)\,dx \right ) f(x)\,dx[/tex]

That would be obvious (given the fact that [itex]\int_{-\infty}^\infty f(x)\,dx = 1[/itex] if I could say

[tex]\int_{-\infty}^\infty \left(\int_{-\infty}^\infty x\, f(x)\,dx \right ) f(x)\,dx = \int_{-\infty}^\infty f(x)\,dx \cdot \int_{-\infty}^\infty x\, f(x)\,dx[/itex]<br /> <br /> but what gives me the right to do that? The only thing I've seen that allows that is Fubini's theorem, which I thought is only valid over a rectangle. I can't call this a rectangle, can I?[/tex]
 
What gives you the right to do that is that "dx" is a dummy variable. The inner integral is just a number.

Look back to your original post:

[tex]\mu_1 \equiv \int_{-\infty}^{\infty}(x-\mu)f(x)dx[/tex]

[itex]\mu[/itex] is is just a number. Thus

[tex]\mu_1 = \int_{-\infty}^{\infty}xf(x)dx - \mu\int_{-\infty}^{\infty}f(x)dx[/tex]

The first term is just [itex]\mu[/itex] by definition. The second term is also [itex]\mu[/itex] since [itex]f(x)[/itex] is a probability distribution function. Thus [itex]\mu_1 = 0[/itex].
 
Heh heh...

I tried to tell myself that before posting the original question, but my self was not convinced. What's not quite clear to me is exactly when is the inner integral "just a number"?

Is the inner integral "just a number", and can I always do this...

[tex]\int_a^b \left(\int_c^d f(x)\,dx \right ) f(y)\,dy = \int_a^b f(y)\,dy \cdot \int_c^d f(x)\,dx[/tex]

as long as c and d are not functions of y?

(Surely it's not ALWAYS just a number, or there would be no need for Fubini, right?)
 
Last edited:
gnome said:
What's not quite clear to me is exactly when is the inner integral "just a number"?

It's not a number when it's a function.

In other words, this is not valid:

[tex]\int_a^b\int_c^d f(x,y) dy\; g(x) dx = \int_c^d f(x,y) dy \int_a^bg(x) dx[/tex]

because [itex]\int f(x,y) dy[/itex] is a function of x.
 
I think we're saying essentially the same thing with different examples.

Compromising...in

[tex]\int_a^b\int_{h_1(x)}^{h_2(x)} f(y) dy\; g(x) dx = \int_c^d f(x,y) dy \int_a^bg(x) dx[/tex]

isn't

[tex]\int_{h_1(x)}^{h_2(x)} f(y) dy[/tex]

also a function of x?
 

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