B Football padding against forces -- What is the appropriate amount?

[LightningInAJar]

TL;DR Summary

What is the appropriate amount of padding?

I don't know much about forces, speed, and what is needed to cushion a blow. But after seeing the serious injury of Damar Hamlin, is there a way to create equipment that can easily cushion any impact an NFL player can apply to another player? Or does the equipment get too heavy by that point that motion in general becomes too difficult? Is it a self defeating process? Surely they'd maximize protection if it were possible?

 

[Baluncore]

TL;DR Summary: What is the appropriate amount of padding?

Is it a self defeating process? Surely they'd maximize protection if it were possible?

It is a body contact sport, injuries can be expected.
The more padding, the more violent will be the contact between players.
At some point, the padding becomes a weapon.

 

[DaveE]

Football padding is good at spreading out the force over a larger area, and a little bit good at spreading it out in time. But it doesn't really change the amount of energy (or impulse) received. It is a violent sport by design, yet we aren't maiming or killing that many players considering how many people play. I would be much more concern with longer term, chronic, injuries, which are common* for those who play for many years.

OTOH, if I had kids, they wouldn't play football. In the long run, injuries aren't really avoidable. Ask any 60 year old who played at a high level about their knees...

* "the studies that aim to identify the prevalence of CTE in football players have shown unequivocal findings. In the largest ever case series of CTE, involving 202 deceased former football players, Mez et al. (49) demonstrated the existence of CTE in 87%, including 99% ex-NFL Players (49). Additionally, the magnitude of disease burden was correlated to level of play, with high school athletes having mild CTE, and NFL players showcasing the most severe form of CTE. In a retrospective cohort study of 3,493 NFL players, Lehman et al. (50) concluded the risk of mortality due to neurodegenerative causes to be 3x higher than the general US population, and 4x higher for ALS and AD (50). Additionally, ex-NFL players over the age of 50 have also been shown to be 5x more likely to be diagnosed with dementia than national population averages (51)."
-- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6018081/

 

[berkeman]

TL;DR Summary: What is the appropriate amount of padding?

But after seeing the serious injury of Damar Hamlin

He was not injured from making that tackle; he had a cardiac arrest.

Edit/Update -- Now a doctor is saying that it might be related to the hit, which I read was only on his shoulder, but maybe there is more to it...

Dr. David Montgomery, a board-certified cardiologist and host of “Dr. TV,” offered his insight into what he saw examining the hit and said he thinks there are two distinct possibilities.

“One is what we’ve been hearing about, which is that there is a sudden contact to the chest and impact to the chest that causes a chaotic rhythm to happen and the heart stops beating. We call that commotio cordis; it’s Latin, it just means commotion or chaos in the heart rhythm,” he explained.

“The other distinct possibility is that when he sustained the impact, that he got a blow to the chin, the chin then referred back into the brain and causing sort of an acute traumatic brain injury.”

Montgomery said while it is rare, someone can have a traumatic cardiac arrest in seconds to minutes after a severe enough traumatic brain injury.

https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-ne...e=kron4.com&utm_medium=newsnation-cross-brand

 

[LightningInAJar]

It is a body contact sport, injuries can be expected.
The more padding, the more violent will be the contact between players.
At some point, the padding becomes a weapon.

A pillow can never be a weapon? Couldn't padding be so much that moving with it is half the battle? Knights had mobility issues, but were largely safer from swords in their heavy metal casing?

 

[LightningInAJar]

Football padding is good at spreading out the force over a larger area, and a little bit good at spreading it out in time. But it doesn't really change the amount of energy (or impulse) received. It is a violent sport by design, yet we aren't maiming or killing that many players considering how many people play. I would be much more concern with longer term, chronic, injuries, which are common* for those who play for many years.

OTOH, if I had kids, they wouldn't play football. In the long run, injuries aren't really avoidable. Ask any 60 year old who played at a high level about their knees...

* "the studies that aim to identify the prevalence of CTE in football players have shown unequivocal findings. In the largest ever case series of CTE, involving 202 deceased former football players, Mez et al. (49) demonstrated the existence of CTE in 87%, including 99% ex-NFL Players (49). Additionally, the magnitude of disease burden was correlated to level of play, with high school athletes having mild CTE, and NFL players showcasing the most severe form of CTE. In a retrospective cohort study of 3,493 NFL players, Lehman et al. (50) concluded the risk of mortality due to neurodegenerative causes to be 3x higher than the general US population, and 4x higher for ALS and AD (50). Additionally, ex-NFL players over the age of 50 have also been shown to be 5x more likely to be diagnosed with dementia than national population averages (51)."
-- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6018081/

I hope someday gene therapy can promote brain damage repair.

 

[russ_watters]

A pillow can never be a weapon? Couldn't padding be so much that moving with it is half the battle? Knights had mobility issues, but were largely safer from swords in their heavy metal casing?

You are correct. So the issue is that the NFL and other football leagues do not want to reduce mobility in pursuit of safety.

 

[PeroK]

A pillow can never be a weapon? Couldn't padding be so much that moving with it is half the battle? Knights had mobility issues, but were largely safer from swords in their heavy metal casing?

Football played by knights in armour would be an interesting spectacle!

 

[Baluncore]

A pillow can never be a weapon?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillow_fight

 

[pinball1970]

TL;DR Summary: What is the appropriate amount of padding?

I don't know much about forces, speed, and what is needed to cushion a blow. But after seeing the serious injury of Damar Hamlin, is there a way to create equipment that can easily cushion any impact an NFL player can apply to another player? Or does the equipment get too heavy by that point that motion in general becomes too difficult? Is it a self defeating process? Surely they'd maximize protection if it were possible?

The padding will reduce the chances of fracture, cuts, bruising where you have pads but they do not protect your organs.
Your brain will shake in your skull regardless of protective head gear if a strong force is applied.
Hamlin took the hit in the chest then got up and collapsed backwards and hit his head on the turf.
Both hits would have jolted his brain and heart to some extent.

This is article is interesting on brain injury w.r.t. boxing

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...-out-who-cares-boxing-brain-damage-tris-dixon

Association football (heading the ball)

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...lth-warning-dementia-expert-dr-willie-stewart

and finally rugby, the closest thing to NFL.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/b...-it-is-going-away-the-game-is-deluding-itself

 

[russ_watters]

The padding will reduce the chances of fracture, cuts, bruising where you have pads but they do not protect your organs.
Your brain will shake in your skull regardless of protective head gear if a strong force is applied.
Hamlin took the hit in the chest then got up and collapsed backwards and hit his head on the turf.

While basically true as stated, that's misleading. Padding doesn't eliminate but does substantially reduce impact forces (acceleration).

 

[russ_watters]

Listening to sports radio today, it was pointed out that this was a freak injury that is different from the typical/common injuries in football. So it doesn't really warrant changes. The risk of this injury is actually higher in baseball, amongst amateurs(getting hit in the chest by the ball).

 

[LightningInAJar]

Football played by knights in armour would be an interesting spectacle!

Definitely jousting if it goes to OT.

 

[LightningInAJar]

Listening to sports radio today, it was pointed out that this was a freak injury that is different from the typical/common injuries in football. So it doesn't really warrant changes. The risk of this injury is actually higher in baseball, amongst amateurs(getting hit in the chest by the ball).

A relative who is a nurse said something about an impact hitting the chest at a particular moment in the cycle of heartbeat is what it might take to throw it out of sync. So this probably is a freak accident. But it is still horrible that this is a sport that they feel the need to pray before every game. Nik Wallenda the tight rope walker prays while he's walking. I don't know the attraction towards sport with such great risk if not for money.

 

[berkeman]

I don't know the attraction towards sport with such great risk if not for money.

Well, I rode motocross (MX) for many years with berkeboy, and it wasn't for money. There are many enjoyable parts of action sports, but certainly if you can do something you love at the professional level and get paid for it, that is even better. You can be assured that we wore the best protective gear we could get, and were smart about how we worked our way up to the biggest jumps/whoops/obstacles.

It's good to discuss how to improve safety gear, and what rule changes (re: concussion protocols) can be made to help keep athletes as safe as possible.

 

[LightningInAJar]

I think this video explains the assumed cause of the cardiac arrest.

 

[pinball1970]

While basically true as stated, that's misleading. Padding doesn't eliminate but does substantially reduce impact forces (acceleration).

Which part is misleading specifically? I never said eliminate, I said reduce certain types of injury.
I will qualify a little bit.
Being tackled by a 6 ft 200lb guy at speed is going to hurt, pads or no pads.
Mouth guard will protect your teeth and head gear will protect your jaw ears, eyes to some extent but the jolt to your brain can cause damage.
The guardian article on boxing claims 99% damage to the brain in a boxing career is during sparing not in matches. So that is with head gear.

 

[DaveE]

I played football for one year in high school as a lineman. I also participated in other sports. The one thing I recall from that was how physically tiring it is to be hit repeatedly in practice; not painful, the pads fix that (mostly), not tired from running or lifting weights, that was also true, but different. Repeated collisions take a toll even in one long practice session. That isn't something I experienced in other sports. Yes, you can be hit by a baseball, but that doesn't happen over and over again. The energy is absorbed by the players, one way or another.

 

[DaveE]

Also, sorry to rain on the news media parade here, but there are millions of cardiac arrests that don't happen on TV. OK, I do feel sorry for this guy, but I also feel sorry for all of the others. This is a common, leading, cause of death, and one (albeit high profile) event is relatively insignificant, except to people that know him. I don't know him, and neither do y'all (probably). Nothing to see here that didn't also happen yesterday in your own town, move along now.

 

[russ_watters]

Which part is misleading specifically? I never said eliminate, I said reduce certain types of injury.

This:

... [pads] do not protect your organs.

Pads do protect your organs.

 

[russ_watters]

Also, sorry to rain on the news media parade here, but there are millions of cardiac arrests that don't happen on TV. OK, I do feel sorry for this guy, but I also feel sorry for all of the others. This is a common, leading, cause of death, and one (albeit high profile) event is relatively insignificant, except to people that know him. I don't know him, and neither do y'all (probably). Nothing to see here that didn't also happen yesterday in your own town, move along now.

Pretty much everything you say is true, but awareness is a good thing. People should know where their business's AED is, get CPR certified, etc.

That said, there are parts of this case that are rare. While cardiac arrests happen about a thousand times a day in the US alone, the vast majority are in the older population. Of those in the younger population, most are due to epilepsy. I'm having trouble finding stats, but for young, otherwise healthy people it is probably single digits per year. These are the deaths people don't know are possible. Except when it happens to someone you know or on national TV. I'm not sure it's ever happened on national TV before and the closest I remember was Hank Gathers, who was not healthy and improperly treated (not taking his heart meds/getting reduced dosages):
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hank_Gathers

 

[DrJohn]

It is a body contact sport, injuries can be expected.
The more padding, the more violent will be the contact between players.
At some point, the padding becomes a weapon.

Boxers wear gloves so they can hit harder without breaking the bones in their hands. Not to protect the person they are hitting.

An article I read yesterday commented that some people think it was due to commotio cordis - worth googling on that.

The blow appears to be a shoulder impact on his chest, and the commotio cordis occurs when the impact is at just the wrong place and time in the heart beat cycle. The video above (Lightninginajar's post) and the commentary from the doctor match what I read elsewhere.