For the vast majority of kids, college isn't worth it

[Turion]

The biggest mistake kids make imo is picking useless majors.

I agree wholeheartedly but the issue is that I'm studying engineering and you're an engineer so there might be some bias. I wonder what others on this forums think regarding this? Disclaimer: our definition of useless is something that isn't marketable or isn't economically viable.

 

[Simon Bridge]

Disclaimer: our definition of useless is something that isn't marketable or isn't economically viable.

A marketing major will likely tell you that everything is marketable, you have to find the right market, and the right marketing strategy. Then the statement boils down to "the biggest mistake kids make is picking majors that they subsequently fail to market effectively." or "the biggest mistake kids make is picking majors that turn out to be economically unviable a few years later."

Perhaps we need to clarify the definition:

Can you find a choice of major with zero chance of making money?
How many engineering major do not get engineering work? Did they make a "mistake" too?

Does every student need to make money off their major?

My major got me a job as an actor once - largest paycheck I've ever had and I beat out the drama/performing-arts majors... but I've also had well payed jobs off qualifications that are not my major... did I make a "mistake"?

But isn't there an underlying bias here in thinking that it is a "mistake" to pick a major that is unlikely to make money ... assuming that making money is the only reason to study. The need for a good job must, surely, be a parameter in the decision making process and, for many, it will be an important one. But not for everyone.

The bottom line is that the student needs to decide, in advance, which course of study will provide what will be important to them some years in the future. This amounts to predicting socio-economic outcomes. Is that a reasonable thing to expect from someone just out of high school that failing to do so would be called a "mistake"?

People doing/with vocational degrees tend to look down on the more arty ends and the arty people likewise back atcha :)

 

[Drakkith]

The people on this forum and elsewhere who will defend college as "worth it" fall into 2 categories.

Why stop at just 2? How about me? I've got an associates degree after taking just 5 classes thanks to my air force career. Totally. Worth. It. I already had 80% of the degree, just had to get the last little bit.

While I do understand your complaint, I don't appreciate you making broad generalizations such as this.

I'm sure the argument will be made that the college system isn't at fault, but the 3/4 of students who didn't make it worth it for themselves are.

The argument could be made that ferocious kittens run the economy, so it doesn't really matter what you can argue, as that could be anything. It comes down to how much you hold people accountable for their own future. Some would say every single one of those people had it in them to succeed, but didn't. Others, like yourself, would claim that it wasn't their fault.

I believe the truth lies in the middle somewhere.

This supposes that it is theoretically possible for everyone to get a good return on their college degree. I highly doubt it is.

I don't know about theoretically, but it's certainly not a realistic possibility. There will always be someone somewhere who doesn't get their moneys worth out of college.

There are usually more Psychology majors than Computer Science majors at a given school. Yet the economy just doesn't need people with a base knowledge of psychology.

I think you're ignoring, or ignorant of, the benefits of simply having a degree at all. I can't say I have much knowledge on the matter, but I've heard from practically every person I would consider trustworthy on the matter that having a degree, any degree, is better than not having one.

So, at the very minimum, the fact that colleges aren't churning out degrees in proportion to their demand in the economy, means that the college system, as is, cannot be worth it for every student.

I think this is far too simple to accurately describe the situation. For one, the choice of degree lies with the individual seeking it, not the college. Two, why the hell would the college care if you get a degree in nuclear engineering or underwater botany destruction? They are a business. Give them money and they're happy. (Which has its pros and cons)

It also true, from my experience, that the 3/4 who find college was a waste of time were not necessarily lazy or unmotivated people who partied throughout college. A lot of them were clean-cut, motivated fellows who were just mislead.

Yes, it's a fact of life that you can't see the future and perfectly predict what will happen and if it will be worth it.

After all, a lot of high school kids going into college are encouraged to take their time, focus on finding their passion and graduating. And they think that, even if they're not in a traditionally marketable major, their good grades and problem-solving skills will make employers eager to hire them and train on-the-job the specific role. A pipe dream, mostly.

True, but a lot are also unmotivated crap sacks who just want to party. A lot simply don't know what they want to do and end up getting a degree in something they end up hating. A lot simply couldn't make it through for various reasons. Should I keep going? I'm sure if we join together we can keep finding reasons people didn't get their moneys worth out of college.

 

[aquitaine]

I would add more clearly: "make good choices", but yeah, otherwise I agree. The biggest mistake kids make imo is picking useless majors. Want to study psychology and art history because they interest you? Hope you like being a waiter! So yeah, when you go to college, you can set yourself up to be successful or be a burger-flipper and which you end up as is mostly up to you.

You said you studied physics: did you have a plan for what you would do with that degree when you graduated?

One of the reasons why is because many people who go to college go because someone else told them to. Just get this magic piece of paper, wave it around and suddenly all your potential employment problems will somehow go away. Except that it doesn't, I've met many people who can't get jobs, not many places are hiring recent graduates. Higher education is a debt fueled bubble just waiting to burst.

 

[Simon Bridge]

... many people who go to college go because someone else told them to. Just get this magic piece of paper, wave it around and suddenly all your potential employment problems will somehow go away.

How many? Can you back these statements up with peer-reviewed research? Preferably quantitative.

This thread has passed the point where people should be backing up their statements with, you know, science... hasn't it? Any social scientists want to step in here?

 

[Chronos]

No degree - and a life of temporary, low income jobs ... how is that a better option?

 

[Drakkith]

No degree - and a life of temporary, low income jobs ... how is that a better option?

To be fair, there are other ways of getting a decent job other than having a college degree. You just severely limit your options by not having a degree. And it can be a LOT harder to get to the same point as someone with a degree. My Dad taught himself everything he knows about computers and programming and makes over 100K a year. But it took him years and years to reach that point and countless hours of studying at home while working 1-2 jobs and raising 4 kids.

 

[Simon Bridge]

Is a "college education" the same thing as "having a degree"?
Those people who drop (or flunk) out have obtained some college education right?
Colleges may award honorary degrees t people without any college education if they want.
Many colleges will have an option to apply for a degree based on work already complete outside of college ...

Anyone who attends college expecting, upon graduation, to just walk into a well paying job is sadly deluded ... but do most people entering college really believe that this will be the case? Maybe they believe, correctly, that doing well in college opens the door to an otherwise unavailable job market (and saying "so I can get a good job" is shorthand for that)? Someone's probably done a survey on this. Anyone looked?

Whether or not something is a waste of time kinda depends on what you think counts as a waste of time... so the question is actually very subjective. Do most college graduands consider their college education to have been a waste of their time? What about those who flunk out of their freshman year? This sounds like something that is likely to have been subject to social science research - has anyone looked?

I think the main positions on this topic have already been adequately spelled out in the previous responses. The way forward is to do the research or find someone who already has - otherwise we are just going in circles.

 

[aquitaine]

How many? Can you back these statements up with peer-reviewed research? Preferably quantitative.

This thread has passed the point where people should be backing up their statements with, you know, science... hasn't it? Any social scientists want to step in here?

Um, for years on end everyone at my high school had it drilled into their heads by guidance counselors that college was the only way to achieve success. It's common knowledge that this occurs in most American suburban high schools. Are you seriously going to claim that this has had no effect on student decisions to go to college? The dropout rate alone suggests that most people who go to college are not prepared for it.

I don't have money to shell out for a peer reviewed paper on the subject, but here's some quantitative analysis for you:

Take 10 high school graduates who go to college. Based on the dropout rate, which is about 50% on average, only 5 of them will graduate. Of those that do graduate, http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/30/us-usa-graduates-jobs-idUSBRE93T0WB20130430 Because I'm generous I'm rounding that down to 40%. So of those 5 that graduated only 3 will get a job in their field. So, that's a success rate of 30% with the rest either being underemployed or saddled with student debt and having no degree.

Now, let's do a risk/reward comparison with another risky activity: Starting a business. The failure rate of startups is 75%. So, that's only 5% higher than the failure rate of going to college. Assuming you do find a job, while the salary might seem high student loan repayments will take quite a bite out of it but even if that's not the case all you have to look forward to is a lifetime of wageslavery. Now let's say you found a startup and are successful, what often happens is the business is sold for millions of dollars.

Therefore based on these averages it is not worth it to go to college for most people. Higher education is a bubble, it won't last.

No degree - and a life of temporary, low income jobs ... how is that a better option?

If the USA Today is to be believed half of all STEM jobs are held by people without degrees.

There's also more than a few cases of HR departments overemphasizing degrees. Why is it suddenly necessary for an admin assistant to have a bachelor's degree?

 

[russ_watters]

One of the reasons why is because many people who go to college go because someone else told them to. Just get this magic piece of paper, wave it around and suddenly all your potential employment problems will somehow go away. Except that it doesn't, I've met many people who can't get jobs, not many places are hiring recent graduates. Higher education is a debt fueled bubble just waiting to burst.

Everything in life is a risk/chance. No one should ever think education is a guarantee of success or lack of education is a guarantee of failure. But the reason for getting an education (a useful education) is it gives you the better chance of success.

Um, for years on end everyone at my high school had it drilled into their heads by guidance counselors that college was the only way to achieve success.

This is such a common-sense life lesson it is hard for me to fathom people getting it so wrong. If my mother taught me anything, it was that there are no guarantees in life.

It's common knowledge that this occurs in most American suburban high schools. Are you seriously going to claim that this has had no effect on student decisions to go to college?

I don't think I've ever encountered such density on this subject before, no.

The dropout rate alone suggests that most people who go to college are not prepared for it.

Take 10 high school graduates who go to college. Based on the dropout rate, which is about 50% on average, only 5 of them will graduate.

While I would quibble with your slicing of the data (for people entering four-year colleges, the numbers are much better), that doesn't really have anything to do with whether the degree itself has value.

Of those that do graduate, http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/30/us-usa-graduates-jobs-idUSBRE93T0WB20130430

The link doesn't say that. If you're going by the title, the article - oddly - doesn't explain it so it strikes me that the reporter may have misinterpreted data. But if you are talking about "underemployed" and "need more training", neither of those imply not needing a degree.

Because I'm generous I'm rounding that down to 40%. So of those 5 that graduated only 3 will get a job in their field.

Not getting a job in your field is not equivalent to not needing a degree. But like I said before: some degrees are worth more than others and the biggest mistake people make is getting a degree that isn't worth much and/or does not have a lot of available jobs.

So, that's a success rate of 30% with the rest either being underemployed or saddled with student debt and having no degree.

Even setting aside that the timeframe is only two years, your criteria for "success" is flawed because it doesn't compare that case to the alternative.

...but even if that's not the case all you have to look forward to is a lifetime of wageslavery.

What is "wageslavery"?

Now let's say you found a startup and are successful, what often happens is the business is sold for millions of dollars.

"Often"? Exactly what fraction of startups are "sold for millions of dollars"?

Therefore based on these averages it is not worth it to go to college for most people.

"Averages"?? You mean based on the made-up comparison to startups?

Higher education is a bubble, it won't last.

I'm not sure you know what the concept of a "bubble" is about, but could you please explain what you think it means in this context?

If the USA Today is to be believed half of all STEM jobs are held by people without degrees.

Did you read what jobs qualify as STEM jobs? It is pretty broad. So I don't see how that is useful.

There's also more than a few cases of HR departments overemphasizing degrees.

Arguing with them about it isn't going to convince them to hire you.

Why is it suddenly necessary for an admin assistant to have a bachelor's degree?

Because it increases the odds of getting an intelligent/quality employee.

 

[russ_watters]

I agree wholeheartedly but the issue is that I'm studying engineering and you're an engineer so there might be some bias. I wonder what others on this forums think regarding this? Disclaimer: our definition of useless is something that isn't marketable or isn't economically viable.

I'm not sure how us being in engineering implies bias. That some majors lead to higher paying jobs and lower unemployment rates than others is just fact.

 

[russ_watters]

A marketing major will likely tell you that everything is marketable, you have to find the right market, and the right marketing strategy.

Gawd, I hope not! The marketing major really should understand that different markets have different sizes so some things are much more marketable than others. No matter how good of a marketteer you are, you will never succeed at selling lifejackets in a desert. Do marketing majors take economics? I sure hope so.

But isn't there an underlying bias here in thinking that it is a "mistake" to pick a major that is unlikely to make money ... assuming that making money is the only reason to study. The need for a good job must, surely, be a parameter in the decision making process and, for many, it will be an important one. But not for everyone.

For what fraction and what is the alternative? I'd wager that there are only three categories of people for whom picking a good major to get a good job is not a significant consideration and the fraction is pretty tiny:

1. People who are independently wealthy and don't intend to ever work.
2. People who attend service academies, where major does not affect career options in the military.
3. Women who go to college so that they can find a husband to support them.

The bottom line is that the student needs to decide, in advance, which course of study will provide what will be important to them some years in the future. This amounts to predicting socio-economic outcomes. Is that a reasonable thing to expect from someone just out of high school that failing to do so would be called a "mistake"?

Yes.

 

[4568131947]

Find your dream or look at the one you have beneath your feet.

 

[QuantumCurt]

This is a subject that I can go both ways on. I feel that everyone is entitled to a college education. However, there are some kids that I don't feel have what it takes. I'm currently in a community college, and the number of students there that really don't care about their education astonishes me. There are a lot of great students there too, but many of them seem to really just be viewing their college education as a means to get a job. They whine constantly about all of their GenEd courses, don't understand why they need to have a working knowledge of basic math, and just generally don't come off as really wanting to be there. I imagine community colleges have more of a problem with that type of mentality than universities do, but it's something that I have observed very widely at my school.

I think society has in many ways taught people that they absolutely HAVE to get a college education in order to be successful in life. There's no denying that a college education will generally result in a higher paying job, and a more successful career, but that's not universal. There are plenty of people that have been incredibly successful in life without a college education.

In either case, I do think everyone deserves the chance to get a college education. In my opinion, few things in life are more satisfying than shedding a little sweat over a course, and coming out on top of it.

 

[turbo]

A degree is not necessary, IMO. Skills and knowledge of your field will get you there. My last boss fired me for having the temerity to tell him that I saved his company by rebuilding a crap division into one that out-earned the other 3 divisions combined. I wanted to continue to work from home and he refused.

I looked for a labor-lawyer and took him in the past few years of my tax returns. He took the case on a contingency status, with no questions asked. If you can pull in over $200K a year consistently using your knowledge of your field, you'll do OK. Not enough income to live in NYC or southern CT, but it's plenty for Maine. No degree can confer on you the knowledge that comes from years of experience.

BTW, my cousin is one of the top "engineers" for a very large defense corporation. He doesn't have a degree, either, just a certificate from a two-year community college. He is also doing quite well, though he has had to adjust with getting moved all over the world to supervise defense projects. He and his wife and daughter spent over 5 years in Oz, and I loved the digital pics that they sent, especially of vacations in Tasmania.

 

[ZombieFeynman]

BTW, my cousin is one of the top "engineers" for a very large defense corporation. He doesn't have a degree, either, just a certificate from a two-year community college. He is also doing quite well, though he has had to adjust with getting moved all over the world to supervise defense projects. He and his wife and daughter spent over 5 years in Oz, and I loved the digital pics that they sent, especially of vacations in Tasmania.

When did your cousin first get this position? How long did he work in the field? How old is he?

I suspect this is an antiquated situation which is not represntative of the engineering job market today.

 

[Theorem.]

I don't really think the generalisations made in the OP are credible...

 

[turbo]

When did your cousin first get this position? How long did he work in the field? How old is he?

I suspect this is an antiquated situation which is not represntative of the engineering job market today.

He is two years younger than me, making him 59. Right out of CC, he got a job with a very large defense contractor, programming for an advanced radar system, and they quickly promoted him to manager. He and his young wife spent quite a few years in Oz, so he could do similar work there, and then returned to the US, getting moved around to do other defense-work, including designing electronics/sonar/radar for subs.