The discussion centers around the forces that bind hydrogen atoms together to form H2, with a focus on the electromagnetic force and its role in atomic interactions. Participants explore concepts related to covalent bonding, wave functions, and the nature of intramolecular forces, incorporating both quantum mechanical and classical perspectives.
Participants express differing views on the nature of the forces involved in atomic bonding, particularly regarding the role of electromagnetic forces versus intramolecular forces. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives presented.
There are limitations in the discussion regarding the definitions of terms like "intramolecular forces" and the assumptions underlying the explanations of wave functions. Some participants express uncertainty about the implications of these concepts in the context of atomic interactions.
A more 'noddy' description (a description without QM that would have satisfied a Victorian, perhaps) could be that each atom shares each electron. The attraction between each proton and each electron pulls the two protons together until their mutual repulsion balances out the attraction. This covalent bonding happens in many other molecules and describes how large molecules with chains of Carbon atoms (in particular) can exist. School Chemistry describes the bonding between some atoms of different elements as 'ionic bonding'. In that case the model is that one electron moves from one atom to the other and actually forms two ions. (Google it).Orodruin said:You are correct that the interaction is electromagnetic. It is a matter of how the electrons and the nuclei interact and those are charged.
Very simplified: If you have two hydrogen atoms infinitely far away from each other all energy levels of the electrons will be degenerate. As the protons come closer together, this degeneracy is broken and there will be one symmetric wave function energy level where the electrons on average will be likelier to stay between the protons that has a lower energy than the antisymmetric one. Placing both electrons in this energy level (possible due to spin) is a double covalent bond.
A similar question would be why negatively charged ions can exist.
Two electrons in a bonding orbital constitute a single covalent bond. Just one electron (as in H2+) would give a bond of order 1/2.Orodruin said:Placing both electrons in this energy level (possible due to spin) is a double covalent bond.
sophiecentaur said:A more 'noddy' description (a description without QM that would have satisfied a Victorian, perhaps) could be that each atom shares each electron. The attraction between each proton and each electron pulls the two protons together until their mutual repulsion balances out the attraction. This covalent bonding happens in many other molecules and describes how large molecules with chains of Carbon atoms (in particular) can exist. School Chemistry describes the bonding between some atoms of different elements as 'ionic bonding'. In that case the model is that one electron moves from one atom to the other and actually forms two ions. (Google it).
Also, Metals are held together very strongly because the outer electrons are shared by many adjacent atoms, (a form of covalent bonding, if you like). As the metal is stretched, the electrons keep pulling and they latch onto different atoms. So the metal doesn't break because other bonds are formed.
Orodruin said:there will be one symmetric wave function energy level where the electrons on average will be likelier to stay between the protons that has a lower energy than the antisymmetric one.
No. The symmetric/antisymmetric here refers to a parity transformation of the spatial wavefunction. In general, if you have a symmetric potential as in the case of the two protons, the wave function of the energy eigenstates will be either symmetric or anti-symmetric.heavybuilder said:I think I found an answer: but i still don't get what Orodruin was saying
symmetric waves: particle interchange with bosons
antisymmetric waves: particle interchange with ferminons
heavybuilder said:Can somebody explain this? ^
Where did you get that idea? I was talking about electrons and protons. That's electrostatic (Coulomb) Force.heavybuilder said:So no electromagnetic force but intramoleculair forces?