Formation of jets with accretion disks at black holes

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the formation of jets and accretion disks around black holes, exploring the mechanisms behind jet formation and the challenges in understanding these phenomena. Participants seek resources and intuitive explanations suitable for a lay audience, while addressing the complexities involved in the topic.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express uncertainty about the complete understanding of jet formation, noting that existing models do not fully account for observed features.
  • Several mechanisms for the formation of relativistic jets are mentioned, including the Penrose process and the Blandford-Znajek mechanism, which involve frame-dragging and magnetized accretion disks, respectively.
  • There is a suggestion that jets are narrower and more energetic than simple models predict, indicating the involvement of shocks and multi-component fluids.
  • Participants discuss the difficulty in providing a straightforward explanation of jet formation, acknowledging that reality is more complicated than initial models suggest.
  • Neutron stars are mentioned as also being capable of producing relativistic jets, highlighting that black holes are not the only sources of such phenomena.
  • One participant references the historical context of black hole physics, noting that misconceptions persist despite advancements in understanding, such as Hawking radiation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the phenomenon of jet formation is not fully understood and that multiple competing views exist regarding the mechanisms involved. There is no consensus on a single model that satisfactorily explains all observed features.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in their understanding and the complexity of the physical processes involved, suggesting that assumptions and definitions may vary among different models.

haushofer
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TL;DR
Looking for resources on the formation of jets at black holes
Dear all,

I'm going to give a course about black holes at an astrophysics association. The public will consist mainly of lay persons, perhaps wit a little bit of physics background. My background in General Relativity is good, but my background in astrophysics at bit less. My question is if you know about some good online resources/lecture notes about the formation of jets (and accretion discs) around black holes, and the mechanisms behind those jets launching charged particles. Is there an intuitive/easy way to understand how those jets form in the first place? Many thanks.
 
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This may not be so easy - I don't think the phenomenon is completely understood.

At first order, things are simple. If the source is surrounded by an orbiting disk, you get absorption in the disk-ward direction and thus transmission perpendicular to that. The problem is that jets seem to be narrower and more energetic than that simple model.

I don't think there is any model that reproduces all the observed features. Shock seems to be involved, ant multi-component fluids (electrons do this, ions do that). Certainly magnetic fields by themselves won't do the trick.

Wasn;t there an Annual Review on jets a few years back?
 
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I concur that your task is far from simple. The only postulated mechanisms that I am aware of for formation of relativistic jets are the Penrose process and the Blandford-Znajek mechanism.

The first is based on frame-dragging, the second on a magnetized accretion disk with rotational contortions of the field lines.
 
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Hyperfine said:
I concur that your task is far from simple. The only postulated mechanisms that I am aware of for formation of relativistic jets are the Penrose process and the Blandford-Znajek mechanism.

The first is based on frame-dragging, the second on a magnetized accretion disk with rotational contortions of the field lines.
Mmmm, yes, after some reference searching I get the feeling that my hope of a sketch of the physical process "on the back of an enevelope" is a bit naive. I was hoping to get some feeling of why there are jets in the first place, and how its direction(s) roughly are determined.
 
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Vanadium 50 said:
This may not be so easy - I don't think the phenomenon is completely understood.

At first order, things are simple. If the source is surrounded by an orbiting disk, you get absorption in the disk-ward direction and thus transmission perpendicular to that. The problem is that jets seem to be narrower and more energetic than that simple model.

I don't think there is any model that reproduces all the observed features. Shock seems to be involved, ant multi-component fluids (electrons do this, ions do that). Certainly magnetic fields by themselves won't do the trick.

Wasn;t there an Annual Review on jets a few years back?
You mean

https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev-astro-081817-051948
?
That's behind a paywall, unfortunately.
 
haushofer said:
behind a paywall
Unless you need it now, that's what libraries are for,

But why not just giove them the first order explanation perhaps adding "reality is far more complicated and not entirely understood".
 
Vanadium 50 said:
Unless you need it now, that's what libraries are for,

But why not just giove them the first order explanation perhaps adding "reality is far more complicated and not entirely understood".
Yeah, sure, it's mostly for my own understanding. I'm just a bit surprised that my intuition falls short here, so I guess I learned something new :P
 
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  • #10
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Neutron stars also have relativistic jets. A black hole is not a requirement. One may easily find images of the jets from the neutron star in the Crab Nebula. We know it has a neutron star because it is a pulsar. A black hole cannot be a pulsar.

I know that there is as yet no completely satisfactory explanation of relativistic jets. That is, an entirely successful model has yet to be built.
 
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  • #12
Old habits die hard - likewise old models. People still say that nothing can get out of a black hole but Hawking changed that many years ago (1970s).
 
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