Forming set with infinite elements

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter jagbrar
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Elements Infinite Set
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the question of whether it is possible to form sets with infinitely many elements using only the empty set, pairs, and unions. The scope includes foundational concepts in set theory and the axioms required for constructing infinite sets.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether "pairs" refers to direct or Cartesian products.
  • One participant asserts that it is not possible to form infinite sets using only the empty set, pairs, and unions, stating that a separate axiom is needed to assert the existence of infinite sets, typically the axiom that the natural numbers exist.
  • Another participant references the axiom of pairing, which states that for any two sets, there exists a set containing both as members.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the ability to form infinite sets with the specified operations, indicating that there is no consensus on the matter.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the dependence on axioms in set theory and the implications of using only certain operations to construct sets, without resolving the underlying assumptions or definitions involved.

jagbrar
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
using only the empty set, pairs, and unions can you form sets with infinitely many elements?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
jagbrar said:
using only the empty set, pairs, and unions can you form sets with infinitely many elements?

Pairs? Do you mean direct/cartesian product?
 
jagbrar said:
using only the empty set, pairs, and unions can you form sets with infinitely many elements?

Now, one cannot. We need a separate axiom to be able to form infinite sets. Normally, one uses the axiom that [itex]\mathbb{N}[/itex] exists. But this is (usually) equivalent to asserting that an arbitrary infinite set exists.

Using only the empty set, pairs and unions, one cannot derive that infinite set exists.
 
gb7nash said:
Pairs? Do you mean direct/cartesian product?
The axiom of pair/pairs/pairing says that if x and y are sets, there's a set z such that x and y are both members of z. Link.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
4K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
450
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K