Free time while pursuing my undergraduate degree

[Vanadium 50]

Let's not get caught up in the vanfasty.

Housing is $8200/year. $33K for 4 years.

The cheapest van with a bath sold by Winnebago is $180K, of which $40K is the chassis. The nest one can hope for is $20K for a used chassis, $13K for the hardware (bed, fridge, toilet, sink. etc.) and the rest labor. That would just barely break even.

That leaves, at best, $127K in labor. Assuming the Winnebago workers get $50/hour, that's 2500+ hours. That is over 15 months of full-time work: 8 hours a day, while the OP is taking classes.

If instead the OP got a job, even ay a McDonalds, and earned $12-13/hour for the same time period, he will have made enough for housing. And these are the most favorable numbers possible for living out of a van - anything more realistic will tilt things even more towards living in the dorms.

 

[berkeman]

Let's not get caught up in the vanfasty.

Housing is $8200/year. $33K for 4 years.

The cheapest van with a bath sold by Winnebago is $180K, of which $40K is the chassis. The nest one can hope for is $20K for a used chassis, $13K for the hardware (bed, fridge, toilet, sink. etc.) and the rest labor. That would just barely break even.

Used Vanagons are about $20k. Shower at the campus gym (or sneak into the coed dorms (that's where I lived my first 2 years)).

Spoiler

I don't know if they have Coed dorms in the midwest. UC Davis is in Cali.

 

[Vanadium 50]

A Vanagon has no bathroom. If you're going to live somewhere where you need to sneak into a bathroom, why not go all the way and pitch a tent?

 

[berkeman]

https://www.smartservice.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/porta-potty.png

 

[WWGD]

Used Vanagons are about $20k. Shower at the campus gym (or sneak into the coed dorms (that's where I lived my first 2 years)).

Spoiler

I don't know if they have Coed dorms in the midwest. UC Davis is in Cali.

Clemson is in one of the Carolinas.

 

[berkeman]

Clemson is in one of the Carolinas.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I'm kind of geography challenged.

 

[WWGD]

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I'm kind of geography challenged.

Weather is relatively mild, winters aren't too harsh.

 

[gleem]

@berkeman said "Even if your grandmother situation is a bit dicey, does she have any utility hookups that you can share?" I hope so since you do not want to deal with propane for heating and cooking. I've looked up the livable space for a van that you might convert and it is about 10 ft long, 5.7 ft wide, and maybe 6.5 ft high, 57 sq ft of floor space. of which about 14 sq feet for the toilet (Ok skip the shower and and save 6 sq ft using the Uni's gym),12 sq ft for the bed, 2.5 sq for the fridge 2.5 sq ft for the stove, 7 sq ft for the sink/counter, 15 sq ft for the isle, and 4 sq ft for a work/study area. Guests? good luck. And then there are regs for campers to make them legal. Try living in a space smaller than half as big as a normal bedroom. I see insulation as a problem so just crank up the environment system. This will be a challenge for the most organized OCD person.

 

[WWGD]

Maybe a Tinyhouse would be better? Not sure about the pricing.

 

[Muu9]

AP Physics 1 and 2 are no good for engineering, if you want credit you will need to take physics C which requires calculus as a corequisite.

Look here at the curriculum flow chart and see which classes you can knock out via APs (e.g. AP Chem junior year instead of AP Physics 1/2 in order to get CH 1010 credit, or get a 5 in either AP English to get credit for ENGL 1030)

This would allow you to take some of the later math classes earlier, leaving your upper years less intense than they would be otherwise

 

[gmax137]

Let's not get caught up in the vanfasty.

I agree. The whole van thing is a distraction, who cares about the OP's living arrangement two years from now? The important things are to help the OP get into school and do well once he/she is there.

 

[whatamievendoing]

Let's not get caught up in the vanfasty.

Housing is $8200/year. $33K for 4 years.

The cheapest van with a bath sold by Winnebago is $180K, of which $40K is the chassis. The nest one can hope for is $20K for a used chassis, $13K for the hardware (bed, fridge, toilet, sink. etc.) and the rest labor. That would just barely break even.

That leaves, at best, $127K in labor. Assuming the Winnebago workers get $50/hour, that's 2500+ hours. That is over 15 months of full-time work: 8 hours a day, while the OP is taking classes.

If instead the OP got a job, even ay a McDonalds, and earned $12-13/hour for the same time period, he will have made enough for housing. And these are the most favorable numbers possible for living out of a van - anything more realistic will tilt things even more towards living in the dorms.

I was hoping to save up around 40 grand, do the conversion myself, and I would have solar and an induction cooktop. I do see how it could be detrimental to convert the van, and if you take out all of the expenses of room and board, I would barely break even. I still think that this project would allow me to gain plenty of experience, travel whilst still being able to get my degree, and overall I feel it would be good for my mental health. Another option I was considering would be to buy a smaller car and a teardrop trailer, that way I could still provide myself with the getaway to nature which i so desire.

 

[Vanadium 50]

If you think you will barely break even, you won't. Everything costs more than planned. Don't take my word for it - ask anyone who has remodeled their kitchen. And remember, your plan is to do this for 20% of what it would cost you to buy this outright.

You want to travel the country in a van? Fine. You want to get an engineering degree? Fine. You want to do them both at the same time? Not going to happen.

You want to take on a full-time project at the same time as a full-time engineering degree? Not going to happen either. (And the person who says you can is not an engineer)

 

[phinds]

I still think that this project would allow me to gain plenty of experience,

Experience doing WHAT? Anything relevant to your degree pursuit?

 

[whatamievendoing]

Experience doing WHAT? Anything relevant to your degree pursuit?

I would learn how to wire my own electricity, I would learn how to route plumbing lines, I would learn to woodwork, weld, insulate, and control climate. All of these things would be applicable to my mechanical engineering/aerospace major.

 

[whatamievendoing]

If you think you will barely break even, you won't. Everything costs more than planned. Don't take my word for it - ask anyone who has remodeled their kitchen. And remember, your plan is to do this for 20% of what it would cost you to buy this outright.

You want to travel the country in a van? Fine. You want to get an engineering degree? Fine. You want to do them both at the same time? Not going to happen.

You want to take on a full-time project at the same time as a full-time engineering degree? Not going to happen either. (And the person who says you can is not an engineer)

What about the 12 week college summers? Do you think I could possibly get it done if I were to set aside 14 hours a week during school and around 35 hours a week during the summer? Most vans require around 600-630 inexperienced hours and, after doing the math, i would have around 616 hours throughout the summer and school year. I do have a decent bit of experience in construction and woodworking, but none in electrics or plumbing, which could be setbacks.

My whole thing is that if I could set aside 2 hours a day (even on weekends) to work on the van during school, and 5-6 during the summer, I should have the van done in around the ballpark of 600 hours. During the school year, after doing the math to get 9 hours of sleep per day, 2 hours a day working on the van, and 10 hours a day studying (168-63-14-70) I am left with 21 hours to cook, eat, socialize, and do whatever I would like. This does seem relatively loose, all things considered. if I would like to go on hikes or go out with friends, all of this would fit into my relative timetable. If I’d like to take a day trip to explore the state parks, I would at least have roughly ten hours to do so. keeping in mind that this would include me doing the same thing every day, but after consulting others that graduated with my degree from the same university, they advised it would be closer to 12 hours of study per weekday, for 58 hours a week.

Edit: changed words around to make the math “add up” lol

 

[gmax137]

Maybe between now, and when you enter college, you can get a summer job working for someone who does van conversions. That would scratch your itch without interfering with your formal education. Once you start college, I recommend you focus on your classes. If you find you actually have extra time, then you can get a van or whatever strikes your fancy.

 

[CrysPhys]

The OP is obviously dead set on doing what they want to do. It appears to me that they posted here just to get validation of their plans. There's no point in all these posts trying to persuade them to do otherwise.

 

[gmax137]

The OP is obviously dead set on doing what they want to do.

Yes. But I wanted to do a lot of things when I was 15 that I had forgotten about by the time I was 17 or 18. Make of that what you will.

 

[CrysPhys]

Yes. But I wanted to do a lot of things when I was 15 that I had forgotten about by the time I was 17 or 18. Make of that what you will.

<<Emphasis added>> Simply "forgotten", correct? Not "logically persuaded by others to drop them when I asked whether they were good ideas or not". There's a significant difference.

 

[gleem]

Tinker how you will. But consider this. For every $10K you borrow you can expect a monthly payment for the loan of about $100. The current starting salary for most BSs in ME is between $78K and $84K. Since the trade-off between living on campus and in a van off campus is probably less than $8K/year, a debt of $32K is a monthly payment of $320. Unless you developed some exorbitant lifestyle this is a piece of cake for a single person. You can better concentrate on your studies and get to know your classmates better.

 

[Haborix]

One more comment to throw into the pot. When it is crunch time (exams, unexpectedly long/difficult homework, group projects, etc.), "easy" living is even more valuable. You're hungry and out of food? Drop into dorm cafeteria or student union and grab something quick---no grocery shopping needed. Laundry needs doing? Down the hall from dorm room. Need a book from the library at 10PM? Walk across the street to the library.

A part of me still thinks OP should try the van scheme. Young with lots of energy and many life lessons to be learned through failure or success. But the real trouble with the van is what happens if mid-semester it just isn't working. It is hard to see an easy way to switch to a plan B.

 

[Frabjous]

A part of me still thinks OP should try the van scheme.

The OP should be trying to create an environment that is conducive to success. His idea introduces risks beyond those of a normal college student. He is investing time (4 years) and tuition ($60k to $160k). It only takes a couple of blown tests to significantly depreciate this investment.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I agree that the OP is going to keep asking and asking and asking until he gets the answer he wants.

There are also plenty of students who are doing well at 15 and struggle getting into the college of their choice at 17. The OP has repeatedly told us that he is too smart for that, but as they say, talk is cheap.

But the number I really take issue with is 600-630 hours. The idea that one knows the effort required for such an ill-defined task to 5% is implausible. Heck, I don't think one knows how much effort it takes to wash a van to 5%.

 

[symbolipoint]

Yes. But I wanted to do a lot of things when I was 15 that I had forgotten about by the time I was 17 or 18. Make of that what you will.

<<Emphasis added>> Simply "forgotten", correct? Not "logically persuaded by others to drop them when I asked whether they were good ideas or not". There's a significant difference.

And both of you are right!

 

[MidgetDwarf]

Clemson University is in Clemson, South Carolina. As far as I am concerned, living on family owned land is not illegal, and considering it is less than a 15 minute bike ride from campus, I think it would actually be a better idea than spending over 20 grand per year for 8 years, plus the cost of tuition. I do see your point as to how I would save up the money, however I could take out a loan if need be (already would be required for college). As for the whole freezing thing, I would invest into climate control, such as insulation and heating for the mediocre winters I would experience. I am a hard worker and am very capable of making and saving money, despite my inexperience.

Do you have experience installing such devices? What if there is a snow? Many people in the midwest still die from carbon monoxide poisoning every year...

 

[MidgetDwarf]

My two cents...

Going to college and trying to work is fraught with a lot of pain. You simply cannot balance the two. I know this from experience.

I went to a local college to study physics. Compared to neighboring schools my highschool was behind the times. Our most advanced math course was Precalculus. It was a great course taught by a master teacher but it wasn't Calculus.

Over the summer, I learned Differential Calculus everything except the limit proofs. To me they were an unnecessary inconvenience. Fortunately, my college staggered the courses you needed to take to ensure that you would have both parts of Calculus under your belt by the time you started Introductory College Physics.

But I was working 20 hrs a week and I was in a hurry to learn more physics so I tested out of Differential Calculus. The prof was kind enough to approve after a brief test and a question on the meaning of the epsilon-delta limit proofs. That was the gotcha, I got it wrong and had to visit with him a couple of times explaining it in my own words. Finally in exasperation, I recited the book definition and he said you know I think you got it and smiled.

I thought I was pretty smart jumping ahead like that into meatier courses. I didn't care much about GPA or grades just learning. In hindsight, it would have been an easy A, and I let it pass me by.

During the first two years, I was able to glide through the important classes related to physics and math, but I was not too fond of chemistry for its afternoon 4-hour lab work. I was a commuter and tried to get all my classes in the morning so I could get the bus home in the afternoon, do some homework, and then go to work at the local Big-N department store. Big-N was a competitor to Kmart and very much like it, except we didn't have the blue light specials.

I even managed to take a few extra classes, which the college allowed without additional cost. Our college used a trimester system, with 10 weeks per trimester and three courses worth 3 and 1/3 credit hours each. Learning was very compressed. I knew of one student who doubled up taking six courses per trimester and effectively graduated with a four-year degree in two years while only paying for two years of college.

The third year, courses and homework started to get really tough and I had trouble keeping up. Each year of college is like 3 years of high school and if you don't stay on top of things or have the time to do so you will falter and fail.

My classical mechanics class (book Classical Dynamics by Marion) was taught on Mondays and Fridays. On Monday, we were given our homework for the week to be due the following Monday. I planned to wait until the weekend since I had no free time during the week which in hindsight was not a good plan.

In those days, we had no internet, only the college library, but being a commuter who worked, I had little time to go there and relied on my ability to get through the work. It always took me longer looking at whatever books I had to piece together an answer.

What made matters worse was that the Professor said, "Well, since you all are almost finished with Monday's work, here are a few more problems to be due on Monday, too." I was floored. I did my best, but I always managed to hand in my homework a few days late. The professor would tell me, "Your homework is good, its organized with clarity of thought but since it's late, I have to dock you a grade."

This pattern continued until I graduated with a low B average.

When my younger brother, who was 10 years younger than me, went to college, I told my parents that he shouldn't work because it would affect his grades. He didn't, and eventually, he got his PhD in physics. In contrast, I have a MS in Comp Sci and somehow I felt I failed in my mission. However, later while working full time managed to accrue almost enough graduate credits for an MS in Physics too.

My work allowed me to pay off my college loans six months after I graduated, but it impeded me from getting a higher academic degree like my brother did.

Please consider this story as relevant to your plan:
- working 20 hrs is too much
- no time to study / no time to play
- college gets tougher each year/people hit brick walls in their junior year
- don't skip courses you can do easily they will help your GPA
- don't work if you don't have to / it might give you 10 hours per week free time

Although I do agree, that ideally one should not work at all if one goes to college. Since thats time away from studying.
Not everyone has this luxury as you yourself did not. What I will say, is to work the necessary hours to survive. Nothing more.

The majority of kids, not saying the op falls into this category. Are more preoccupied with looking fresh, and having the latest and newest gadgets. Which causes them to work unnecessary hours to buy these things.

Not to mention the low standards highschools have today. Many students are not mature enough to balance both. I believe maturity is true culprit.

Im part Mexican part Comanche, and grew up on the reservation most of my life, and moved to Compton around 15. I had ill parents [ my mom is 75 and father would have been 80]. Hence, I started working around this time and eventually dropped out. It was either work full time or be homeless.
As I turned 21, I enrolled into a GED program and started college. Had to take remedial mathematics [arithmetic] and from memory, I took about 12 to 13 math classes to transfer.

Fast forward, I recently got an MS in mathematics, while working 30 to 40 hours a during undergrad/grad. Moreover, I had a family to take care of. Had no free time. Just work/school. I did have female companionship, but never a gf. My situation was on the severe side, I believe.

I have seen students work 20 hours, some did well and graduated. Others flunked out. The common denominator was students who were mature eventually graduated, and those who were not flunked.

 

[berkeman]

Fast forward, I recently got an MS in mathematics

Wow, what a success story! Good job.

 

[PhDeezNutz]

I really think OP’s best interests would be served by building up money by taking a few years off and working.

Don’t you think coming home to a van would take a mental toll on you? I respect your SAT scores. I respect your accomplishments. I respect your passion but I think you’re overzealous.

As @Vanadium 50 as repeatedly pointed out the logistics of living in a van is not feasible (for most people at least). Imagine having to drive to take a P or an S. C’mon man.

You’re young. You have time. Do yourself a service and build yourself up to be in a better position first.

 

[PhDeezNutz]

I’ll add though my friend recently graduated with a degree in software engineering. He lived in his car for a non trivial amount of his schooling.

If this is really what you want to do. Get a gym membership at 24 hour fitness so you can use their bathroom for the usual body functions and a shower.

Maybe in the meantime you can get jacked.


Assuming you can cook in your van…..

 

[berkeman]

Get a gym membership at 24 hour fitness

I know they offer a senior discount (don't ask me how I know that); do they offer a student discount?

 

[PhDeezNutz]

I know they offer a senior discount (don't ask me how I know that); do they offer a student discount?

Apparently they do not. But I’m gonna assume that it’s about $40 a month. $480 is not a bad price to pay for using a restroom when you have no other options.

Total side note: I recently squatted 305 pounds for a personal record……..pretty good for a person that has worked out sporadically over the last 4 years….and had only worked out seriously for the last 5 weeks.

Old man strength at 36.

 

[Vanadium 50]

"Hey, my plan is to join the ranks of the homeless when I go to college!"
"And here at PF we think this is such a good idea that we're willing to help you."

What did the OP ever do to us?

 

[CrysPhys]

Cross-referencing another thread. "Ten Simple Rules to Live By":

(1) Suffering is good for the soul.

....

ETA: "Ten Simple Rules for Responding to PF Threads":

(1) When an OP seeks validation for choices they've already made, humor them. "Why, yes of course, you are making the right choices."

...

ETA-1: In case it's not obvious, all of the above is intended sarcasm.

 

[jrmichler]

There is another path. Graduate from high school, join the military for four years, save money. A savings account with $50,000 is easy, with more than that possible. The person would also get the GI Bill scholarship program. And the military encourages education, so getting the first year or more of college online is very doable.

I did something similar. I left college after two years for a number of reasons. I was in the wrong major (EE), didn't know what major I really wanted, was tired of poverty, wanted to do some traveling, tired of school, and needed a break. So I dropped out, and joined the US Air Force. Four years later, I had traveled across the country by hitchhike, motorcycle, small airplane, and antique truck. I had a savings account, knew what I wanted to do (ME), had the financial resources to do it, and was mentally recharged. I graduated college with no debt and enough money to make a down payment on a house.

 

[Frabjous]

(1) When an OP seeks validation for choices they've already made, humor them. "Why, yes of course, you are making the right choices."

While some go too far in criticizing foolishness, one should never validate it.

 

[jedishrfu]

Good point, @jrmichler . I recalled applying to the US Coast Guard Academy in 1970 and having the SAT and grades they sought. I had an Explorer Scout mentor who had gone to the Academy. He said it gave him an excellent education and some serious sailing skills.

Coast Guard personnel are eligible for the GI Education Bill, which pays 100% for college after three years of active duty. Much of their work involves patrolling coastal areas, rescue work, and drug interdiction.

---

What stopped me from going was the physical. I had terrible vision in one eye, aka amblyopia, more commonly known as lazy eye. It was correctable with glasses, but their physical requirements were no worse than 20/100, correctable to 20/20 with glasses, and my right eye was measured at 20/400.

I remember going to the Albany Post Office, where all military physicals were done. We were treated very cordially by everyone. They asked us to line up for inspection and then ran us through several tests. When I failed the eye exam, the doctor apologized but said the army would gladly take me. As I was leaving, another group of recruits was ushered in, and I heard the army sergeant yell, "Alright, you draftees, line up over there! Now!"

---

Amblyopia is funny because I can see the same image in both eyes but it's like I'm seeing it through a heavy screen. One side effect is that it impairs my ability to target anything using a bow since I'm right-handed and use my right arm to pull the bowstring back, and I can't sight down the arrow like better archers can.

 

[Vanadium 50]

join the military for four years, save money

Not everyone who plans on doing this saves money. Sadly, many joining the military adjust their spending upward to match their new income.

Given the OP's resistance to advice, I would question how well he will do in the military. People entering the military, especially in the early phases, get a lot of...well, lets call it advice and feedback from more senior members.

 

[berkeman]

People entering the military, especially in the early phases, get a lot of...well, lets call it advice

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drill_instructor

 

[jedishrfu]

Hollywood made several great movies on military boot camp:

1) The most notable "Band of Brothers" series, where the first couple of episodes depict the harshness of the training. My dad was in the WW2 Battle of the Bulge and wanted to see this series, but after the first few episodes, he just stopped when they arrived in England before any combat happened. It was then that I realized the true impact the war had on him nearly sixty years later, in 2004.

2) Stripes: A Bill Murray comedy on boot camp with a group of rejects eventually getting into the groove with Bill Murray's help.

3) Tribes: A Darren McGavin and Jan Michael Vincent (Airwolf) movie where Vincent is a new draftee recruit from California and very laid back.

---

I've never been to boot camp. My closest recollection is a three-day Taekwondo camp at a school north of West Point. It was a grueling three days that, on reflection, improved our TKD skills by at least 6 to 12 months of once-a-week two-hour classes on Fridays.

We did a two- to three-hour morning session at 6 a.m., had breakfast and rest, then another two-hour noon practice followed by a two-hour late afternoon practice. Our South Korean 80-year-old grandmaster was there and ran everything like clockwork. He was the most demanding teacher I ever met.

 

[CrysPhys]

While some go too far in criticizing foolishness, one should never validate it.

Just to avoid any misunderstanding: My Reply #84 in its entirety was intended sarcasm. I thought about adding an appropriate emoticon when I first wrote it, but then judged it superfluous. I've since added a clarifying comment after reading your response.

 

[Frabjous]

Just to avoid any misunderstanding: My Reply #84 in its entirety was intended sarcasm. I thought about adding an appropriate emoticon when I first wrote it, but then judged it superfluous. I've since added a clarifying comment after reading your response.

Written sarcasm is frequently missed.

 

[gmax137]

Written sarcasm is frequently missed.

 

[jtbell]

I am sure some of my other friends will get into Clemson as well

If that comes to pass, have you considered sharing an off-campus apartment with one or more of them? I suspect it might be cheaper than living in a dorm, although you’d have to run the numbers for the situation in Clemson.

I didn’t have to consider that option for undergrad, because my parents were able to pay my way. But I did do it for grad school, with other physics grad students as roommates. It definitely helped make ends meet on a grad-student stipend.

The other big factor that helped was not owning a car, but instead bicycling, walking and using public transportation.

 

[PeterDonis]

Hollywood made several great movies on military boot camp

The Boys in Company C and Full Metal Jacket both have good portions about boot camp.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Folks, we are way jumping the gun here.

(1) The OP hasn't even gotten into Clemson yet. Yes, he did well in junior high school, but that is only a start. It is not guaranteed, and my estimate is that it will require a lot of work for the rest of high school.

(2) There is no financial aid package yet, so there is no way to determine what is an is not affordable. Furthermore, the OP has said that this plan is to save money and he has said that it isn't.

(3) There is a strong consensus that an engineering degree is a full-time job (or close to it). Yes, the OP doesn't want to hear this, and yes, some people without engineering degrees have said otherwise. A plan that requires the OP to hold down essentially two jobs is highly unlikely to succeed.

To my mind, PF does the OP an extreme disservice by encouraging the "vantasy." Instead we should be encouraging him to excel in high school.

 

[jtbell]

Yep, first things first…

 

[CrysPhys]

Just a comment for the military option recommended by some posters. Several of my co-workers at one company were in the Army Reserves. They talked about the benefits they received, with relatively little risk at the time. Then in the aftermath of 9/11/2001, several were deployed to Iraq. So those contemplating the military option should not overlook the risks.

 

[whatamievendoing]

Not everyone who plans on doing this saves money. Sadly, many joining the military adjust their spending upward to match their new income.

Given the OP's resistance to advice, I would question how well he will do in the military. People entering the military, especially in the early phases, get a lot of...well, lets call it advice and feedback from more senior members.

I do tend to struggle with authority, as i had been basically used as a doormat my entire life. As a result of being bullied, i am resistant to authorities, especially those who are roughly my age.

 

[whatamievendoing]

For all of the people who have said to join the military, i have contemplated this option. The only problem i see with it is the spot that i would like in the air force (either in engineering or on the space program) is not guaranteed. This then causes me to not like the idea, because my whole plan isnt to fight for this country, as i plan to expatriate myself to an asian or european country eventually.

I overall feel that this option carries too much risk, especially for my physical well being (ie. fighting wars). I do consider myself a good shot with pellet guns, however I just simply dont see the appeal of guns in general, so there is no reason for me to learn how to use one. If i could guarantee either one of the two out of ten jobs i would like, this option would be more feasible, however at the moment i feel that the risks and drawbacks outweigh any gains.