News Funding for Science from the 112th Congress

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Senator Rand Paul's proposed bill includes significant cuts to various federal agencies, with drastic reductions such as 100% for the Department of Energy and 62% for the National Science Foundation. The proposed cuts reflect a broader trend in the new 112th Congress, raising concerns about the future of funding for science and technology. Critics argue that these cuts are naive and could have severe consequences for American innovation and research capabilities. The discussion emphasizes the importance of government investment in infrastructure, education, and research, suggesting that previous generations understood the need for such commitments. There is also a debate about the potential impact on the job market and the economy, with some advocating for increased taxes on the wealthy as a solution to the deficit rather than drastic cuts to essential services. The conversation highlights the tension between fiscal responsibility and the need for federal support in areas critical to national progress and competitiveness.
  • #51
mheslep said:
That assumes the US Department of Education actually improves education. Please show how US education is better now with it, than it was some years ago before it.

I'm not sure how you measure that... jobs? Literacy? Individual quality of life? I think a lot of people believe the USDE is ancient... when really it's just Carter's '79 pet. AFAIK literacy in the USA has been a steady 99% 15 and over according to the CIA World Factbook.

So... I don't know... are there any good studies that aren't a partisan mess?
 
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  • #52
nismaratwork said:
I'm not sure how you measure that... jobs? Literacy? Individual quality of life? I think a lot of people believe the USDE is ancient... when really it's just Carter's '79 pet. AFAIK literacy in the USA has been a steady 99% 15 and over according to the CIA World Factbook.

So... I don't know... are there any good studies that aren't a partisan mess?

Didn't the President indicate in his State of the Union speech a few days ago that US graduate schools are filled with foreign students - that return to their home countries upon graduation? This indicates that US students are not competitive with foreign students - doesn't it?
 
  • #53
WhoWee said:
Didn't the President indicate in his State of the Union speech a few days ago that US graduate schools are filled with foreign students - that return to their home countries upon graduation? This indicates that US students are not competitive with foreign students - doesn't it?

It SEEMS to, but it may be that economic and social factors are the issue, not an issue with USDE funding...
 
  • #54
WhoWee said:
You ask about the timing of cuts in spending - citing the recession - then you suggest an increase in taxes?

I side with economists in the idea that direct spending by the government is a much larger stimulus to the economy than tax cuts. Hence, if you are worried about the deficit, but also worried about the economy, raising taxes is more responsible than cutting spending. Obviously, some mixture of both needs to be done, eventually. Also, the supply-side idea that tax rates are the driving factors of the economy is nonsense.

As Vanadiam suggests that's not evenly remotely feasible as a solution with these spending levels. Federal revenue in 2010 was ~2.1 trillion, spending was about $1.4 more.

But we are also coming out of a recession, and have high unemployment. Getting people back to work, and the economy back on its feet will raise the revenue side of things.

There's a good argument to be made that while government labs and R&D funding exploded, the private sector decided to step aside and do other things, still leaving the overall government and private R&D spending well up.

US federal spending on scientific research as a percentage of GDP peaked before the 70s. And its not that industry stopped doing R&D, they simply pushed more to short term applied research, which is part of the larger pattern of maximizing short-term profits that characterizes this era of business.

Huge impact on education? How? That's certainly not true for undergraduate education. Even for graduate education the argument seems weak.

Liberal arts colleges will be fine, however a non-trivial percentage of university operating costs is taken from grants their professors receive. Given that many state universities are already seeing cuts from the state government, a further assault on their operating budget would be extremely painful.

Yes exactly. Why do you think that is? Why are they behaving this way? I suggest again that government interference or threatened intererence in the economy via deficit spending, health care mandates, salary caps, energy taxes all increase risk and crowd out the private sector.

I'd suggest the more likely reason is more simple, low demand. If they needed to increase capacity to meet demand, they would. They do not.
 
  • #55
ParticleGrl said:
Thats a pretty naive analysis. First, we SHOULD raise taxes across the board. The iron law of wages suggests that lower and lower-middle class workers will see their salaries rise to offset the costs anyway.
If they don't lose their job outright, and an across the board tax hike unambiguously suggests more would.

However, we should also add higher tax brackets.

The highest bracket right now is something like 375,000, and something like 35%? Why not add a bracket at 50% for 450,000, 60% for 550,000, maybe up to 90% for making over a million. I can find no source close at hand for how much money that would raise, but it may be non-trivial (of course, it may be trivial, if anyone has good numbers, post them!) .
The revenue from allowing the Bush era tax cuts to expire, that is raise taxes, on incomes from $250,000 all the way up to Bill Gates, was estimated to be $30 billion in 2011, and an average of $70 billion per year over the next ten years. Balance that increase against the $1500 billion deficit.

White House econ advisor Romer said:
While the Office of Management and Budget estimates the high-income tax cuts would cost about $30 billion in 2011, the yearly cost is expected to grow as the economy recovers. Extending them permanently would add about $700 billion to the ten-year deficit.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2010/07/28/extending-high-income-tax-cuts-wrong-answer-recovery

It is also worth noting here that federal revenue as a percentage of GDP never exceed 20% even when top bracket tax rates exceeded 90% back in the 60s and 70s. High earners apparently can just stop earning, shelter their earnings, http://reason.com/blog/2010/11/01/keith-richards-we-left-england"
 
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  • #56
f you want to discuss macroeconomics, then consider the well established impact of government tax rates on unemployment, and not just government spending.

I'm not sure this is as well established as you think it is. http://www.presimetrics.com/blog/?p=162

Didn't the President indicate in his State of the Union speech a few days ago that US graduate schools are filled with foreign students - that return to their home countries upon graduation? This indicates that US students are not competitive with foreign students - doesn't it?

Actually, I think it speaks to the difficulty of making a reasonable living in science. There are other threads about this. Job prospects in many areas of science are fairly weak (overall, we train twice as many scientists as jobs), and while these jobs represent increased opportunity for many foreign students, they represent decreased opportunity for many US citizens.
 
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  • #57
ParticleGrl said:
I side with economists in the idea that direct spending by the government is a much larger stimulus to the economy than tax cuts. Hence, if you are worried about the deficit, but also worried about the economy, raising taxes is more responsible than cutting spending. Obviously, some mixture of both needs to be done, eventually. Also, the supply-side idea that tax rates are the driving factors of the economy is nonsense.

How responsible is borrowing 40% of the money spent? my bold

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41272983/ns/politics-more_politics/
"The eye-popping numbers mean the government will continue to borrow 40 cents for every dollar it spends.
The new Congressional Budget Office estimates will add fuel to a raging debate over cutting spending and looming legislation that's required to allow the government to borrow more money as the national debt nears the $14.3 trillion cap set by law. Republicans controlling the House say there's no way they'll raise the limit without significant cuts in spending, starting with a government funding bill that will advance next month. "



Also, care to elaborate on the "nonsense" remark?
 
  • #58
ParticleGrl said:
Actually, I think it speaks to the difficulty of making a reasonable living in science. There are other threads about this. Job prospects in many areas of science are fairly weak (overall, we train twice as many scientists as jobs), and while these jobs represent increased opportunity for many foreign students, they represent decreased opportunity for many US citizens.

You think the US graduate programs are full of foreign students because of a lack of domestic science jobs? You don't think the foreign students are better prepared?
 
  • #59
WhoWee said:
You think the US graduate programs are full of foreign students because of a lack of domestic science jobs? You don't think the foreign students are better prepared?

OR...


... there are a lot more people in the entire world MINUS school-age Americans, and those places are prized and so you are now competing with the world, and not just your own fixed house?

Maybe what's changing isn't the USA, it's just the rest of the world. That wouldn't be the first time, but if something isn't done soon it may be the last. Too many big fish out there, and too much around water and energy is at stake to just wonder why everyone else is running to catch up while we get fat?
 
  • #60
nismaratwork said:
OR...


... there are a lot more people in the entire world MINUS school-age Americans, and those places are prized and so you are now competing with the world, and not just your own fixed house?

Maybe what's changing isn't the USA, it's just the rest of the world. That wouldn't be the first time, but if something isn't done soon it may be the last. Too many big fish out there, and too much around water and energy is at stake to just wonder why everyone else is running to catch up while we get fat?

I'm talking about the competition for seats in the US graduate schools - not jobs.
 
  • #61
ParticleGrl said:
I side with economists in the idea that direct spending by the government is a much larger stimulus to the economy than tax cuts.
I side with http://www.cato.org/special/stimulus09/alternate_version.html" . Given the dismal results of the over one trillion spent on US stimulus, and two trillion more of monetary stimulus, the similar amounts by percentage spent in Japan in prior decades also to no effect, I think siding with the spending crowd is odd.
Hence, if you are worried about the deficit, but also worried about the economy, raising taxes is more responsible than cutting spending. Obviously, some mixture of both needs to be done, eventually. Also, the supply-side idea that tax rates are the driving factors of the economy is nonsense.
The idea that government spending is the driving factor in the economy is nonsense. Now where does that get us? No Keynes didn't unambiguously say spending works nor is he the last word on government fiscal stimulus. Friedman wasn't an idiot either.
But we are also coming out of a recession, and have high unemployment. Getting people back to work, and the economy back on its feet will raise the revenue side of things.
I agree, I'm sure we all agree. The question is how best to do that.

US federal spending on scientific research as a percentage of GDP peaked before the 70s.
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/databrf/sdb99357.pdf" , compared to all of Europe's one quarter. The cuts on the table here are not more than a percent or two of that.
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And its not that industry stopped doing R&D, they simply pushed more to short term applied research, which is part of the larger pattern of maximizing short-term profits that characterizes this era of business.
As a percentage of GDP? If it simply kept pace with GDP it would be growing significantly year by year, and I see no good reason why growth in absolute terms would not be sufficient. I imagine a good portion of that R&D back in the cold war era must have been spent on the cold war - neutron bombs, star wars and the like. With those gone it doesn't necessarily mean we've seen reduction, even in percentage terms, of other kinds of beneficial pure R&D.
http://i.bnet.com/blogs/battelle-rd-global-spending-2010.png?tag=content;col1

Liberal arts colleges will be fine, however a non-trivial percentage of university operating costs is taken from grants their professors receive. Given that many state universities are already seeing cuts from the state government, a further assault on their operating budget would be extremely painful.
To some of their grant based research maybe (its not clear that industry would not simply pick up the slack), not to education, your original claim, which should be their primary role.
 
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  • #62
WhoWee said:
I'm talking about the competition for seats in the US graduate schools - not jobs.

Me too.
 
  • #63
WhoWee said:
You think the US graduate programs are full of foreign students because of a lack of domestic science jobs? You don't think the foreign students are better prepared?

Consider the very top programs have a much higher percentage of US graduate students- why? Because the top programs provide the must likely avenues to one of the handful of good science jobs. The percentage of foreign students increases dramatically as you move down the rankings.

If we want to increase the percentage of US citizens in science, we need to increase the number of lucrative jobs in science. Anecdotally, the best phd science students I've known have all left their respective fields in favor of increased opportunity and better salaries outside of science. This is after spending 6+ years of their life earning the phd.

Also, care to elaborate on the "nonsense" remark?

The US saw its largest economic expansion during the post world war 2 period when its tax rates were highest (paying off the war). Admittedly the growth was largely due to the fact that the US was the only major player that didn't see its infrastructure damaged or destroyed by the war. However, these facts solidly refute the idea that tax rates alone dictate economic growth.

Keep in mind, economies grow, so revenue is always increasing, so the question is, after a tax cut, is revenue moving along the same trend? Also, the secondary effects of cutting taxes are complex, including (perhaps) better compliance, faster GDP growth, etc. However, no large tax cuts have ever seen the revenue return completely to the trend in revenue before the cuts were made. The Reagan tax cuts come close, but do not see a return to trend. The Bush cuts permanently diminished revenue. http://modeledbehavior.com/2010/07/14/the-heritage-foundation-agrees-bush-tax-cuts-permanently-lowered-revenue/
 
  • #64
caffenta said:
Are you actually saying that you would have no problem with a federal defense budget that is over 40 times the amount allocated for education? Seriously? Cutting education spending by 83% while barely cutting the much larger defense budget seems OK to you?
If I may: education spending in the United States is funded primarily from property taxes (local) and state governments. Federal spending is relatively speaking an afterthought. If the Education Department left the planet tomorrow total US education spending would be little changed. Combined education spending, not including private education, http://www.usgovernmentspending.com...=a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_b_b"

Education-fed_Education-state_Education-local&source=a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_b_b.png


I'd also like to point out that the current level of K12 education is nothing to be proud of.
Why do you expect the Federal Ed Dept, around now for three decades, will improve matters, as opposed to making them worse as has been happening?
 
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  • #65
D H said:
The problem can only be solved if Congress is open to rethinking its mandatory spending. That will require some explicit changes to the underlying laws as opposed to back-room dickering over budgets. It won't be easy.
Such as? Your OP listed Sen. Paul's explicit cuts in federal departments and percentages. Which entitlements to US citizens in particular do you suggest be cut and by what percent, to avoid the discretionary cuts originally labeled as "laughable" and "naive"?
 
  • #66
One of the main problems I cited earlier with Paul's desire to dump everyting onto the states and have no Federal obligations is his statement that forest fire control should be solely a state's problem. California is known for it's forest fires and California is on the brink of bankruptcy.

Isn't one of the benefits of being part of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA is that we pool resources and come to the aid of each other? Paul would have us believe that the belief in a United States should be done away with, that we should break up and each state is now on it's own.

Is that what we want, no more United States, we no longer act as a country? We should just break up into states? And then what?
 
  • #67
Evo said:
One of the main problems I cited earlier with Paul's desire to dump everyting onto the states and have no Federal obligations is his statement that forest fire control should be solely a state's problem. California is known for it's forest fires and California is on the brink of bankruptcy.

Isn't one of the benefits of being part of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA is that we pool resources and come to the aid of each other? Paul would have us believe that the belief in a United States should be done away with, that we should break up and each state is now on it's own.

Is that what we want, no more United States, we no longer act as a country? We should just break up into states? And then what?

...Then the people who believe they're superior (of which I think many politicians are a member) think they'll achieve some kind of natural dominance instead of chaos.

Get it? Everyone gets a gun, and absolute freedom... for the aristocratic class that emerges. There have always been people who call themselves conservative, liberal, or libertarian, but really just want to dial the clock back. I think Paul is such a man; he can't think in terms of future solutions, so he looks only to the past for some kind of quasi-mystical guidance.

Besides, he's a horse's ***.
 
  • #68
ParticleGrl said:
Consider the very top programs have a much higher percentage of US graduate students- why? Because the top programs provide the must likely avenues to one of the handful of good science jobs. The percentage of foreign students increases dramatically as you move down the rankings.
This is a completely naive and ridiculous view of the science job market.

I don't know how things are in grad school now, but back then (couple of decades prior), graduate programs were starving for students. The majority of US college degrees were not interested in grad school at all. That's why the foreign/US raio is (or was) so high.

If we want to increase the percentage of US citizens in science, we need to increase the number of lucrative jobs in science. Anecdotally, the best phd science students I've known have all left their respective fields in favor of increased opportunity and better salaries outside of science. This is after spending 6+ years of their life earning the phd.
You keep saying this over and over. This may be true in your field, but there are plenty of fields in science, including in physics, where you will work in the same field. I know I do and plenty of people I know also do.

I won't disagree with the statement that jobs in science need to be increased, but that's pretty much the case for everything right now. Unemployment is huge for everybody, not just science.

Evo said:
One of the main problems I cited earlier with Paul's desire to dump everyting onto the states and have no Federal obligations is his statement that forest fire control should be solely a state's problem. California is known for it's forest fires and California is on the brink of bankruptcy.

I am not agreeing with Paul at all, but I do think that the state/federal tax ratio should be higher. It seems to me that a lot of the federal budget is sent back to the states, so why not keep some of the money in the states to begin with? I know a couple of countries in which this the case, and it sort of makes more sense. But it should definitely not be everything.

Without federal government oversight, Kansas will start teaching Young Earth Creationism. When will the book burning begin?
Exactly. The federal government should ensure that there are common standards amongst all states.
 
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  • #69
caffenta said:
This is a completely naive and ridiculous view of the science job market.

Then please, give me some numbers. Every study I've seen of the scientific job market suggests a phd glut (and these studies were done PRE recession) across practically all fields. Saying that you have a job, or people you know have jobs, that is anecdotal (just as me saying that the best people I know left physics).

I don't know how things are in grad school now, but back then (couple of decades prior), graduate programs were starving for students. The majority of US college degrees were not interested in grad school at all. That's why the foreign/US raio is (or was) so high.

I agree, the majority of college degree graduates have no interest in graduate school. I'm suggesting that this is BECAUSE there are so few job opportunities. If scientists made as much as medical doctors, we'd have a lot more US degree recipients lining up. My point is not to focus on supply, its to focus on demand.

Unfortunately, universities need graduate students as cheap labor, and so the supply of phds is not tied to the demand for them.

You keep saying this over and over. This may be true in your field, but there are plenty of fields in science, including in physics, where you will work in the same field. I know I do and plenty of people I know also do.

I'm sure there are plenty of fields where there are some good jobs. However, consider that PRE-RECESSION, we created half as many jobs in physics as we did scientists. Look at this state of the job market report from 1995. http://www.aps.org/programs/education/chairs/1995/upload/market.pdf.

We are reaching the point where maybe half of science phds will work in their field- after putting in the time to get the phd.

Add to this the fact that the majority of phd graduates (at least in physics) do at least one postdoc, and you are looking at 9-12 years after undergraduate in which you are making equal to or less than someone without a college degree. Thats not exactly appealing to a majority of US citizens- even if you land that job in science, you've forgone a lot of wages, and you've made it much harder to develop the stability you need to raise a family.
 
  • #70
Just to be clear who supports what in this proposal, who here thinks that a 100% cut in DOE spending is a good or okay idea? And likewise with other specific items?

I personally think disbanding the DOE and expecting the DOD (with no corresponding increase in their budget) or Industry to take up the slack is just plain ignorant. I might have found a bit more merit to an argument that the DOE be disbanded (and NSF slashed to a third) and it's too bad that science and higher education will suffer, but that's a price we must pay, over the argument that fantasizes that Industry and DOD are more than (willing and) capable of filling those shoes.
 
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  • #71
Gokul43201 said:
Just to be clear who supports what in this proposal, who here thinks that a 100% cut in DOE spending is a good or okay idea? And likewise with other specific items?

I personally think disbanding the DOE and expecting the DOD (with no corresponding increase in their budget) or Industry to take up the slack is just plain ignorant. I might have found a bit more merit to an argument that the DOE be disbanded (and NSF slashed to a third) and it's too bad that science and higher education will suffer, but that's a price we must pay, over the argument that fantasizes that Industry and DOD are more than (willing and) capable of filling those shoes.

From a negotiations perspective, it makes sense to propose more than is realistic - you can always accept less. I think that's what happened with a lot of the legislation last year - they threw everything imaginable in the Bills and pushed hard - unfortunately, most of it got pushed through.

I don't see anything wrong with a comprehensive review of all spending - it's long overdue.
 
  • #72
ParticleGrl said:
Then please, give me some numbers. Every study I've seen of the scientific job market suggests a phd glut (and these studies were done PRE recession) across practically all fields. Saying that you have a job, or people you know have jobs, that is anecdotal (just as me saying that the best people I know left physics).
I was referring to your comment about top programs. Nobody in industry really cares, or even knows which program is at the top. And the implication that foreign grad students are somehow inferior is misplaced.
I agree, the majority of college degree graduates have no interest in graduate school. I'm suggesting that this is BECAUSE there are so few job opportunities. If scientists made as much as medical doctors, we'd have a lot more US degree recipients lining up.
I think it was more that college graduates could find good jobs without having a PhD, so why bother? And do you have have any idea what life medical doctors lead? I'll keep my "measly" scientist salary, thank you. With more money comes more responsibility. After a certain point, too much money is not really that good.

Anyway, this is getting a little off topic.
 
  • #73
caffenta said:
I was referring to your comment about top programs. Nobody in industry really cares, or even knows which program is at the top. And the implication that foreign grad students are somehow inferior is misplaced.

I am in no way suggesting that foreign graduates are inferior. I'm suggesting that US citizens who can't get into the best programs don't bother attending graduate school. People respond to incentives- if the end goal of a phd is academic work, then its much better to go to a Princeton or a Berkeley. If the goal is to get admitted to the US in order to have access to increased opportunity, than choice of program doesn't matter as much. Since the US citizens already have access to the opportunities living in the US entails, a phd from Podunk U isn't all that appealing. The incentive structure is different.

Also, if industry doesn't know which programs are on top, why do you see much more recruiting going on at better ranked programs?

I think it was more that college graduates could find good jobs without having a PhD, so why bother?

Except the same doesn't apply to medical and law schools- US citizens sign up in abundance. Why? Because they see good career opportunities. A phd represents a lifetime decrease in earnings, and people respond to incentives.

And do you have have any idea what life medical doctors lead?

Yes, my sister is a medical doctor. In the time it took me to get my phd, my sister finished medical school and residency (admittedly, her three year residency was an insane amount of work). Two years after finishing residency, she had fully paid off her loans (so if we had started at the same time, I'd be finishing a postdoc). She now works 3 days a week, 13 hours, for which she gets paid extremely well. As far as economic gain from a training program, MD beats phd hands down. Which is why there is no shortage of US students fighting to get into medical schools.
 
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  • #74
ParticleGrl said:
Also, if industry doesn't know which programs are on top, why do you see much more recruiting going on at better ranked programs?
If you mean recruiting events, that's probably because Princeton et al have a better alumni service and more money. If you mean actual hiring, I haven't seen it from experience. Maybe these top programs matter to the [strike]morons[/strike] very nice people in HR, but to the people who actually hire PhDs, it means pretty much squat. Let me put it this way, I've never been on a post-interview meeting that went like this: "OK, candidate A is very good, he knows his stuff and seems easygoing, but he's from PodunkU. Cadidate B is a dufus, a jerk, and smells really bad, but he's from Princeton, so he is clearly the best choice." If you look at industry resumes, you'll always see education listed last, on the bottom of the second page. That's how much it matters.

As far as economic gain from a training program, MD beats phd hands down.
That's a personal opinion. Grad school didn't cost me a penny (except maybe some dignity), so my economic return is infinite. Do MD students get paid to do the research that gets them a degree? I don't think so. Also, not everybody goes into a PhD purely for economic gain. I didn't, did you? You're understandably bitter now because you're stuck in the middle of 2 worlds (academia and industry). But objectively, would you have made it through law school for example? I know I wouldn't have.

This keeps getting more and more off topic. People are going to tell us to get a room pretty soon.
 
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  • #75
Gokul43201 said:
Just to be clear who supports what in this proposal, who here thinks that a 100% cut in DOE spending is a good or okay idea? And likewise with other specific items?

I personally think disbanding the DOE and expecting the DOD (with no corresponding increase in their budget) or Industry to take up the slack is just plain ignorant. I might have found a bit more merit to an argument that the DOE be disbanded (and NSF slashed to a third) and it's too bad that science and higher education will suffer, but that's a price we must pay, over the argument that fantasizes that Industry and DOD are more than (willing and) capable of filling those shoes.

You have no idea how upsetting it is hearing that kind of analysis coming from you... who seems to often be the voice of reason. No offense, but this time I hope you're really wrong, even if I wouldn't put money against you.
 
  • #76
mheslep said:
Such as? Your OP listed Sen. Paul's explicit cuts in federal departments and percentages. Which entitlements to US citizens in particular do you suggest be cut and by what percent, to avoid the discretionary cuts originally labeled as "laughable" and "naive"?

Did you read Paul's rationales? Perhaps "laughable" and "naive" weren't the correct terms. Can I switch that to "mind-numblingly stupid," "blatantly false," and "ignorant" instead?

Suppose that Paul had instead said something along the lines of "I propose a 25% across the board reduction in the non-defense discretionary budget" with a rationale of "we have a $1.5 trillion deficit and every government program will need to be cut." That would have been much, much harder to argue against. Our budget is terribly out of whack; cuts will need to be made everywhere.

However, Paul did not do that. He stuck his foot in his mouth instead.
nismaratwork said:
You have no idea how upsetting it is hearing that kind of analysis coming from you... who seems to often be the voice of reason. No offense, but this time I hope you're really wrong, even if I wouldn't put money against you.
I am admittedly putting words in Gokul's mouth here, but I think what he was alluding to was the fact that huge cuts do need to be made everywhere. As I said above, if Paul had used a different rationale, draconian cuts of the sort he is proposing would have been very hard to argue against.

The political reality is that the 12% sliver of the budget that represents non-defense discretionary spending is likely to suffer bigger cuts than defense or mandatory programs. That reducing that 12% sliver to nothing will do little to solve the budget problem is a bit irrelevant. That sliver is an easy target compared to the DoD and the mandatory programs, both of which have some very ardent supporters.
 
  • #77
D H said:
I am admittedly putting words in Gokul's mouth here, but I think what he was alluding to was the fact that huge cuts do need to be made everywhere. As I said above, if Paul had used a different rationale, draconian cuts of the sort he is proposing would have been very hard to argue against.

Huge cuts do need to be made everywhere - this is a tactic to force everyone to look for items that can be cut.
 
  • #78
D H said:
Did you read Paul's rationales? Perhaps "laughable" and "naive" weren't the correct terms. Can I switch that to "mind-numblingly stupid," "blatantly false," and "ignorant" instead?

Suppose that Paul had instead said something along the lines of "I propose a 25% across the board reduction in the non-defense discretionary budget" with a rationale of "we have a $1.5 trillion deficit and every government program will need to be cut." That would have been much, much harder to argue against. Our budget is terribly out of whack; cuts will need to be made everywhere.

However, Paul did not do that. He stuck his foot in his mouth instead.



I am admittedly putting words in Gokul's mouth here, but I think what he was alluding to was the fact that huge cuts do need to be made everywhere. As I said above, if Paul had used a different rationale, draconian cuts of the sort he is proposing would have been very hard to argue against.

The political reality is that the 12% sliver of the budget that represents non-defense discretionary spending is likely to suffer bigger cuts than defense or mandatory programs. That reducing that 12% sliver to nothing will do little to solve the budget problem is a bit irrelevant. That sliver is an easy target compared to the DoD and the mandatory programs, both of which have some very ardent supporters.

Yeah, I agree with you, that's why I found it so upsetting! When someone who strikes me as slightly left-leaning socially is calling for cuts across the board... strap in.
 
  • #79
Evo said:
One of the main problems I cited earlier with Paul's desire to dump everyting onto the states and have no Federal obligations is his statement that forest fire control should be solely a state's problem. California is known for it's forest fires and California is on the brink of bankruptcy.
California is not going broke because of forest fires. California has almost exactly the same GDP as does the nation of Canada with a similar population size and vastly greater land area, yet we do not fear how our neighbors to the North will handle forest fires without the support of the US Forrest Service.

Isn't one of the benefits of being part of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA is that we pool resources and come to the aid of each other?
In time of national peril or disaster brought on from abroad or by no one's fault, we do, and I expect will continue to do so. California is going broke largely because http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-20/california-official-s-800-000-salary-in-city-of-38-000-triggers-protests.html" , while at the same time placing onerous tax and regulatory burdens on businesses causing them to flee the state. Asking, say, Nevada to pay for such a condition would be foolish, not generous. Bail outs are not the reason for which the union was created.

Paul would have us believe that the belief in a United States should be done away with, that we should break up and each state is now on it's own...
I'm unaware that Sen Paul has suggested the US break up in even the remotest fashion.
 
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  • #80
D H said:
Did you read Paul's rationales?
Yes.
Perhaps "laughable" and "naive" weren't the correct terms. Can I switch that to "mind-numblingly stupid," "blatantly false," and "ignorant" instead?
As you like; I was hoping for actual argument, not more name calling.

Suppose that Paul had instead said something along the lines of "I propose a 25% across the board reduction in the non-defense discretionary budget" with a rationale of "we have a $1.5 trillion deficit and every government program will need to be cut." That would have been much, much harder to argue against.
Harder to argue against politically maybe, not because it is better logical argument or more effective way to govern. Across the board cuts are simply greater appeals to emotion, relying on the fallacy that all government programs are equally valuable to US citizens.

Our budget is terribly out of whack;
Yes, a truism. Leadership actually needs precise proposals as to what to about it. Having leadership that fails to do so, or calls for http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us/politics/26speech.html?_r=1" and announces new spending programs in the face of a $1500 billion deficit is the action that deserves the stupid and ignorant derision to my mind, if those phrases must be used.
 
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  • #81
mheslep said:
Yes, a truism. Leadership actually needs precise proposals as to what to about it. Having leadership that fails to do so, or calls for http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us/politics/26speech.html?_r=1" and announces new spending programs in the face of a $1500 billion deficit is the action that deserves the stupid and ignorant derision to my mind.

Just like any budget, get rid of the biggest red numbers first. In the US, DoD should be reduced by 60% while SS, Medicaid, and Medicare should be completely and totally eliminated. For faster recovery, increase taxes on those making >=$500k to 50% and reduce taxes on small and medium companies that do most of their business in the US to 5%. No loopholes.
 
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  • #82
Did you just nail someone for "name calling", then proceed to name calling? What point does that make, except that for two line-break you couldn't abstain from behaviour you so abhor. :rolleyes:

Beyond that, I'm not seeing that you made any counterpoints, just loaded criticism and verbiage. You identify failures, but I'm not hearing you argue for solutions... then again, I suppose you're just a kind of volunteer ombudsman?
 
  • #83
Mathnomalous said:
Just like any budget, get rid of the biggest red numbers first.
That is not what businesses do with budgets. The first thing cut is that which is not absolutely necessary. They prioritize, for the sake of the business. BTW, Paul included cuts to defense in his budget.
 
  • #84
mheslep said:
That is not what businesses do with budgets. The first thing cut is that which is not absolutely necessary. They prioritize, for the sake of the business. BTW, Paul included cuts to defense in his budget.

Correct. SS, Medicare, and Medicaid are unnecessary; the DoD can survive with a reduced budget.
 
  • #85
Mathnomalous said:
Correct. SS, Medicare, and Medicaid are unnecessary; the DoD can survive with a reduced budget.

The SS, Medicare, and (even) Medicaid programs are not unnecessary. However, the programs have exceeded their original designs and have been bloated by political manipulation.
 
  • #86
Mathnomalous said:
That's the opinion of a person who is probably 45+ years of age. All 3 ideas are stupid.

SS: a Ponzi scheme that requires population growth of >=0%, cost of living remains virtually unchanged, and inflation is near 0%.

Medicare: a scam whereby young, healthy people indirectly fund the healthcare of old, ill people.

Medicaid: a scam whereby higher income people fund the healthcare of lower income people, because those lower income people cannot afford healthcare due to the price inflation caused by the subsidization of old people's healthcare.

My age is not as important as my professional experience in this area. Also, please note you responded to this specific post: "However, the programs have exceeded their original designs and have been bloated by political manipulation. "

Aside from snide comments - do you have any support for your post?

Let's start with Social Security - what was it originally designed to do - who were the intended beneficiaries - how is it funded - how was it manipulated - do you know?

Next is Medicare - how is Part A funded - do you know? What is the monthly premium and cost sharing for Part B - do you know?

Last is Medicaid - it is the safety net - costs are shared with each individual state. Medicaid has been manipulated and recently expanded - it's become an unfunded mandate forced upon the states.

Do you know who pays for nursing home care - or what has to happen before Medicaid assumes the cost?
 
  • #87
mheslep said:
D H said:
Did you read Paul's rationales?
Yes.

I was hoping for actual argument, not more name calling.
Since the bill was rather lacking in details, it's a bit hard to do anything other than name calling. If Paul needs to be taken seriously he needs to identify exactly which projects are to be cut. He didn't do that. That said, here are the cuts he proposed related to organizations I specified in the original post. Paul's rationale are indented and in italic. My comments are in left justified plain text.NASA: 25%
With the presence of private industries involved in space exploration and even space tourism, it is time for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration to step aside and allow innovation to flourish. Looking at ways to reduce NASA’s spending is long overdue.
Perhaps Rand is unaware that NASA is funding a lot of this presence by private industry. NASA is already stepping aside and allowing innovation to flourish.

In addition, NASA has consistently been flagged by organizations like Citizens Against Government Waste, which most recently highlighted NASA’s multibillion-dollar Constellation program, a project that has been focused on the exploration of the moon and Mars. Despite spending more than $10 billion on this program, NASA has made very little progress since the program’s inception.

Finally, since President Obama has determined to realign the goals of NASA away from human exploration, and more on science and “global warming” research, the need to fund the agency at levels not consistent with the goals of the past provides the opportunity to direct funds toward deficit reduction.
I'll admit that NASA has made little progress on Constellation. Internal [descriptive term elided] at NASA is one reason. A bigger reason is that it has been underfunded from the onset. An underfunded project is going to flounder.

It's funny that Paul starts with a reference to CAGW, an organization which has been anti-human spaceflight for a very long time, and then in the next paragraph uses the supposed realignment away from human exploration as a justification for cutting NASA.

Another funny thing here: NASA gets off very easy in this proposal, yet Paul devotes more words to justifying cuts to NASA than to any other non-defense science & technology effort undertaken by the federal government.CDC: 28%
The annual budget for the Centers for Disease Control also keeps increasing annually, in spite of “cost-saving efforts” by the department in the way of travel expenses and contract reductions to the tune of $100 million. It seems no matter how much money is appropriated to this or any government agency, they find a “need” for it. It is time for the CDC to work aggressively to find savings in other areas, particularly focusing on domestic priorities rather than spending billions on overseas initiatives.
Perhaps Paul is unaware that bacteria and virus are the ultimate illegal aliens and have no respect for national boundaries. The idea is that it is better to spend a small amount of money fighting a new disease overseas where it first appears before it can become pandemic.EPA: 29%
Since 2008, the Environmental Protection Agency has worked to enforce greenhouse gas regulations on business without Congressional approval. We have seen EPA’s budgets significantly increase in administrative costs to process and handle the regulations they write.

Even with the budget increases, EPA process for assessing and controlling toxic chemicals has continued to stay on GAO’s High-Risk List for potential waste, fraud, and abuse. From the High Risk List of 2009, “GAO recently reported that EPA’s Integrated Risk Information System (IRIS) – a database that contains EPA’s scientific position on the potential human health effects of exposure to more than 540 chemicals – is at serious risk of becoming obsolete because the agency has not been able to complete timely, credible assessments or decrease its backlog of 70 ongoing assessments. Overall, EPA has finalized a total of only 9 assessments in the past 3 fiscal years.”

Toxic chemicals are not the only areas EPA is falling behind. Their delay on approving mining and drilling permits has costs thousands of jobs across our country.
The first paragraph does justify reigning in the EPA. The last two paragraphs are reasons the EPA's budget should be increased. Paul would have been better off if he had just left those statements out of his rationale.USGS: 29%
The U.S. Geological Survey is the largest water, earth, and biological science civilian mapping agency in the United States. Though these are important activities, they can be given to state researchers at our colleges and universities, without having large numbers of regional executives and multiple offices.
What "state researchers at our colleges and universities"? They are funded by the USGS. The justification for this cut is an unfunded mandate for what has been a job of the federal budget since the very start of our nation.NOAA: 36%
The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration was formed in 1970 to serve as both a physical and atmospheric science agency, as well as for the purpose of commercial fishery conservation. Yet according to the NOAA website, “Approximately 25% of NOAA’s annual budget was committed to making progress in understanding the link between our global economy and our planet’s environment.”
Did Paul look into what this vague statement meant? No. He took that vague statement as justification for a 25% cut in NOAA's budget, plus another 11% for punitive measure.

Interesting trend here: As the cuts get bigger, the justifications get ever shorter, have ever less substance, and are ever more politically motivated.NIH: 37%
President Obama’s FY2011 budget calls for a $1 billion increase in funding to the National Institutes for Health. Reducing federal grants in this area would realize billions in savings.
What, exactly, is the justification for a 37% cut here? There is none.NSF: 62%
Research in science is best conducted by private industry for economic purposes. States are also best positioned to direct funding in their own K-12 schools as well as colleges and universities.
Whoa! A 62% reduction justified by two short sentences motivated solely by a twisted view of the federal government's role? Please.DOE: 100%
Created in 1977, the purpose and intent of the Department of Energy was to regulate oil prices. The DoE today reflects an agency that encompasses national security activities such as nuclear weapon production, maintenance, and cleanup which are better suited for the Department of Defense, and other activities that are nothing more than corporate handouts.

In addition, the DoE has provided research grants and subsidies to energy companies for the development of newer, cleaner forms of energy. All forms of energy development are subsidized by the federal government, from oil to nuclear, wind, solar, and bio-fuels, however these subsidies and research are often centered on forms of energy that can survive without subsidies. This drives the cost of energy up for all American taxpayers. The market has always provided new forms of energy development without governmental interference; it is time for the free market to start taking the reins.
Paul is creating an unfunded mandate within the federal government by moving some of the functionality of the DoE back to DoD with no funding for that in DoD. The second paragraph is purely conjectural. He is going to need a bit more than a tiny paragraph to justify eliminating an entire department of the government.
 
  • #88
Regarding your last point about needing more than a paragraph, maybe he's trying to aim for SUPER-concise legislation? :-p

Naaah... he's just a dope.
 
  • #89
So long as it doesn't disappear into the nether regions like the millions of Clinton-Haiti dollars...
 
  • #90
mugaliens said:
So long as it doesn't disappear into the nether regions like the millions of Clinton-Haiti dollars...

There is good news there; that money is still largely protected, and while Duvalier and others flock there... nothing is getting released.

If you mean the money put into Haiti already... what can we do? Ignoring them would be monstrous... personally I think this is where the UN needs to step up. Let the US handle Serbia and the like when fighting needs to be done... the UN can manage aid and be police.

Of course, if we do that, and don't help them ourselves... maybe someone else will? Do we want a Chinese 'Cuba' on our doorstep for this round of international conflict?
 
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