Furor over Native American Fashion Costume

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the controversy surrounding a Native American-themed costume worn during a Victoria's Secret fashion show. Participants explore the implications of cultural appropriation, sensitivity to cultural symbols, and the boundaries of fashion and respect for cultural traditions.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion over why the costume is considered racist, suggesting it may be more about cultural violation than racism.
  • Others argue that the costume trivializes culturally significant symbols, comparing it to inappropriate uses of the American flag.
  • A few participants assert that the backlash reflects an over-sensitivity to cultural issues, suggesting that people should focus on more significant matters.
  • There are discussions about the appropriateness of dressing as various cultural figures for events like Halloween, with some arguing that it is acceptable while others raise concerns about potential offensiveness.
  • Some participants note that Native Americans are struggling to preserve their culture and that such representations can dilute their cultural significance.
  • A participant mentions that the costume could be seen as an homage, but acknowledges the thin line between homage and racism.
  • Concerns are raised about the commercialization of cultural attire, likening it to the sale of religious symbols in a trivial context.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the costume is racist or merely a cultural violation. Multiple competing views remain regarding the appropriateness of cultural representations in fashion.

Contextual Notes

Some participants reference specific cultural customs and sensitivities, indicating that interpretations of the costume's significance may depend on individual perspectives and cultural backgrounds.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those exploring topics of cultural appropriation, fashion ethics, and the intersection of cultural identity and commercialism.

  • #61
zoobyshoe said:
I should think it would be particularly painful to Jews to have a German manufacturer try this stunt given that Germans tried to wipe Jews off the face of the earth, yes, and I would not object to them speaking up about it.

So, you think that Germans today are to blame for what happened with the jews? All Germans? I'm sorry, but that I find such a statement more racist than wearing native american clothes. It characterizes all Germans as bad guys and it says that all Germans wanted to kill the jews. Most Germans today do not have these views and most Germans today are not responsible for what happened during the world war. It is very sad that people keep blaming the Germans for what happened.
 
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  • #62
micromass said:
2) If somebody dresses like a native american, then I see no harm.
You are refusing to understand the breach of decorum in Native terms. An Indian can't just walk into another person's teepee, grab their War Bonnet and try it on. It's big, sacred mojo. It encapsulates another man's bravery. It's not just some sort of hat. The fact you don't object to a white person dressing up as an Indian is immaterial because you don't understand what all the parts of their garments represent in their terms.

You are also refusing to grasp the pairing of this with the woman wearing only underwear. In Native American culture it would be so shocking that all who saw such a thing might be afraid to talk to anyone else who saw it for a year. Natives weren't at leisure to get too preoccupied with sex. It was actively discouraged. Only the modest survived.
 
  • #63
I think we should have a poll. :biggrin:
 
  • #64
gad said:
i think we should have a poll. :biggrin:
a poll!
 
  • #65
micromass said:
So, you think that Germans today are to blame for what happened with the jews?
No, I'm saying the hypothetical German manufacturer would be to blame for extreme insensitivity.
 
  • #66
zoobyshoe said:
No, I'm saying the hypothetical German manufacturer would be to blame for extreme insensitivity.

Because he's German?? Sorry, but I find that attitude very sad.
 
  • #67
No, but don't you think he would have a right to object if a German manufacturer tried to sell women's lingerie using a Star of David? That more like the proper analogy here.

micromass said:
No... You really think he has the right to object because the manufacturer is German?? That's a bit racist, no??
You usually relate tragic events to location and time. Even if a German Jew come up with that lingerie, it will be easier to get offended than say some American come up with that idea.

micromass said:
Because he's German??
Yes. As I said above people relate past events to more than just individuals responsible for those events. People are as sensitive to German making fun of Jews as they are to an English making fun past British colony people. Are they not?
 
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  • #68
micromass said:
Because he's German?? Sorry, but I find that attitude very sad.
I'm not saying it would be perfectly OK for a Belgian to use a Jewish religious symbol to sell lingerie. I'm saying, given recent history, it would be especially insensitive for a German to try it.
 
  • #69
rootX said:
You usually relate tragic events to location and time. Even if a German Jew come up with that lingerie, it will be easier to get offended than say some American come up with that idea.
Any Jew, German or otherwise, trying to sell lingerie with a Star of David would be hounded by Rabbis till he stopped.
 
  • #70
zoobyshoe said:
Any Jew, German or otherwise, trying to sell lingerie with a Star of David would be hounded by Rabbis till he stopped.
There has been no hounding yet... Star of David Underwear & Panties
 
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  • #71
rootX said:
Yes. As I said above people relate past events to more than just individuals responsible for those events. People are as sensitive to German making fun of Jews as they are to an English making fun past British colony people. Are they not?

OK, but we're not talking about Germans making fun of Jews. Making fun of Jews is unacceptable and racist, whether it is done by Germans or others. We're talking about selling lingerie with the cross of David. To me, that is not deliberately making fun of Jews, it's using a religious or cultural symbol for fashion. I don't consider that making fun. You might consider that making fun though, but I would disagree.

Victoria's secret used native american symbolism not to make fun of them, but because they thought it would be nice fashion. If their intent was to mock the native americans, then I would completely disagree with it, but I don't believe that was their intent.

So the question here is not: should we make fun of native Americans (the answer is of course no). But the question is: can we use religious and cultural symbols in art and fashion?? And I think we can. I see no harm in a German using Jewish symbols or an American using native American symbols.
 
  • #72
micromass said:
OK, but we're not talking about Germans making fun of Jews.
I was responding to your quotes where you were talking about Germans like one here:
Because he's German?? Sorry, but I find that attitude very sad.

So the question here is not: should we make fun of native Americans (the answer is of course no). But the question is: can we use religious and cultural symbols in art and fashion?? And I think we can. I see no harm in a German using Jewish symbols or an American using native American symbols
This goes back to my last post (#47) then where I said many people are just too ignorant to see the significance of religious or cultural symbols. It's the symbols that define religions or cultures. There is no separation line between religious/cultural symbols and religions/cultures.
 
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  • #73
rootX said:
This goes back to my last post (#47) then where I said many people are just too ignorant to see the significance of religious or cultural symbols. It's the symbols that define religions or cultures. There is separation line between religious/cultural symbols and religions/cultures.

I think it's about people being ignorant that those things are even symbols at all. Is that what you meant?
I doubt anyone is going to make lingerie with the star of david or jesus on a cross, as those are far more likely to be recognized as religious symbols.
 
  • #74
micromass said:
But the question is: can we use religious and cultural symbols in art and fashion?? And I think we can. I see no harm in a German using Jewish symbols or an American using native American symbols.

I think you are discounting religion or culture specific connotations and sensitivities that a non-member cannot be expected to know about.

For example, using Hindu religious symbols on clothes...you put them on shirts, bags, caps etc, no one will care, but you put them on slippers or shoes or underwear and most people would find that to be in extremely bad taste and disrespectful.

A person who is ignorant about specific customs and is casually using stuff inappropriately is not making fun of the culture or religion, IMO. To them it's just another pretty picture or a cool artifact. But they should be sensitive to the fact that this might be offensive be ready to react appropriately should that be the case.
 
  • #75
Vagrant said:
A person who is ignorant about specific customs and is casually using stuff inappropriately is not making fun of the culture or religion, IMO. To them it's just another pretty picture or a cool artifact. But they should be sensitive to the fact that this might be offensive be ready to react appropriately should that be the case.
In many cultures cattle is sacred, should people stop eating beef because it's sacrilege?

Yesterday a 72-year old man was insulted, spat upon, and finally with a hard punch from behind beaten unconscious. The reason: he was eating a pork sandwich in the presence of Muslims. Should he not have eaten the sandwich, because it's a sin according to the Qur'an?
 
  • #76
Monique said:
Yesterday a 72-year old man was insulted, spat upon, and finally with a hard punch from behind beaten unconscious. The reason: he was eating a pork sandwich in the presence of Muslims. Should he not have eaten the sandwich, because it's a sin according to the Qur'an?

Did I suggest that violence is acceptable either as a form of protest or as a reaction or for anything else for that matter?

I said that people should try to react maturely if they realize that their actions could justifiably be offensive to some. I was referring to VS's apology as appropriate action in reaction to people voicing their objections.

Anyhow, my comment was specifically in context of this thread and micromass' question about using religious or cultural symbols in art and fashion. I was trying to suggest that if you do use them, you should be open to the idea that there might be weird customs attached to them. Violence was not in the picture and nor did I account for it, so I don't think that you should take my comments out of that context.
 
  • #77
I didn't suggest it was ok to use violence, the example illustrates that eating a sandwich can raise religious insult.

Religious and cultural symbols are everywhere in art and in fashion. People have the right to express their opinion on it, but placing a taboo on it is a step too far.
 
  • #78
Monique said:
I didn't suggest it was ok to use violence, the example illustrates that eating a sandwich can raise religious insult.

Eating a sandwich can raise insult in only very, very specific scenarios. Context is vitally important. So is the manner in which you raise objection and react.

I think this is an example of intolerance and a criminal one at that. If, for example, the man was eating this sandwich that they objected to on the premises of their specific religious institution, they would have been justified in feeling upset or asking him to leave the premises. But I'm not even asking you for the context because IMO the second they resorted to violence, they lost any justification they might or might not have had.
 
  • #79
Vagrant said:
A person who is ignorant about specific customs and is casually using stuff inappropriately is not making fun of the culture or religion, IMO. To them it's just another pretty picture or a cool artifact. But they should be sensitive to the fact that this might be offensive be ready to react appropriately should that be the case.
I think it's just wrong to use artifacts because they're cool but then not learning about them. There shouldn't be any excuse for cultural uneducated people to inappropriately use cultural/religious symbols.

It's ridiculous that a big company like VS is ignorant of natives customs.
 
  • #80
Monique said:
There has been no hounding yet... Star of David Underwear & Panties

Excellent research, Monique! I can only say we'll see what happens. I think the "Remember the Holocaust" boxer shorts are not going to fly well in the Hassidic community.
 
  • #81
Monique said:
I didn't suggest it was ok to use violence, the example illustrates that eating a sandwich can raise religious insult.

Religious and cultural symbols are everywhere in art and in fashion. People have the right to express their opinion on it, but placing a taboo on it is a step too far.
These issues are worth discussing but I think you're wandering off topic. The woman at the link is being criticized here for speaking out because her culture is being misrepresented. The question is, are people who object to being grossly misrepresented really out of line?

I don't think so and I think everyone here would be agitated if they were misrepresented in a way they particularly disliked.
 
  • #82
zoobyshoe said:
So, you're saying you never feel the lest bit upset when you read about how rabble rousers in the Middle East misrepresent American Culture to their followers?
How is that anywhere close to what we are talking about? Jessica Simpson is not 'rabble rousing', she's wearing a string on her head.
 
  • #83
zoobyshoe said:
No, I'm saying the hypothetical German manufacturer would be to blame for extreme insensitivity.
Should a German hate Americans due to WWII? German style houses are popular here: is it insensitive of us to build them because of all the Germans we killed?

The circle of hate goes round and round and is very difficult to keep track of.
 
  • #84
Vagrant said:
I said that people should try to react maturely if they realize that their actions could justifiably be offensive to some. I was referring to VS's apology as appropriate action in reaction to people voicing their objections.

And I think people should act maturely if they are offended in some ways. People can get offended in a huge number of ways. Again: should we stop eating meat because it might be offensive? Should we not draw Muhammed cartoons because it might be offensive?? Or should the people who are offended grow a backbone and realize that they can't push their views on other people? I think the latter.

I don't believe we should aim to please everybody. I don't think we even can do that. All we can do is aim to be the best person we can be. And I don't think that wearing religious symbols makes me a bad person. And if somebody is offended, then they should deal with it. They should accept that I am a different person who does not think like them.
 
  • #85
micromass said:
And I think people should act maturely if they are offended in some ways. People can get offended in a huge number of ways. Again: should we stop eating meat because it might be offensive? Should we not draw Muhammed cartoons because it might be offensive?? Or should the people who are offended grow a backbone and realize that they can't push their views on other people? I think the latter.

I don't believe we should aim to please everybody. I don't think we even can do that. All we can do is aim to be the best person we can be. And I don't think that wearing religious symbols makes me a bad person. And if somebody is offended, then they should deal with it. They should accept that I am a different person who does not think like them.

I believe that a mature way in which people deal with finding something offensive is to voice their objections in a rational manner. That does not equal to pushing their views on others. Whether you find merit in it, choose to engage in a discussion about it, oblige them or not is still up to you.
 
  • #86
Vagrant said:
I believe that a mature way in which people deal with finding something offensive is to voice their objections in a rational manner. That does not equal to pushing their views on others. Whether you find merit in it, choose to engage in a discussion about it, oblige them or not is still up to you.

Or they could just be silent about it and accept that people are different.

I've been a vegetarian for more than 10 years. I have never said to people that I find it offensive if other people eat meat. Do you think I should say that?? How would you react if somebody comes up to you and says you shouldn't eat meat because people find it offensive??

I, personally, find nothing more annoying than vegetarians who try to make others feel guilty and who are even offended about the pokemon video game. For me, the situation is simple: if you don't like people to eat meat in your presence, then you should choose yourself not to go in that company. Don't start complaining about people offending you.
 
  • #87
Vagrant said:
I believe that a mature way in which people deal with finding something offensive is to voice their objections in a rational manner. That does not equal to pushing their views on others. Whether you find merit in it, choose to engage in a discussion about it, oblige them or not is still up to you.



People don't have the right not to be offended. To say otherwise is inviting a whole mess of trouble along with some very outrageous restrictions on individual rights.
 
  • #88
micromass said:
Or they could just be silent about it and accept that people are different.

I've been a vegetarian for more than 10 years. I have never said to people that I find it offensive if other people eat meat. Do you think I should say that?? How would you react if somebody comes up to you and says you shouldn't eat meat because people find it offensive??

What I am talking about is that certain things are inappropriate in certain contexts. I think that it would be inappropriate and disrespectful for me to bring meat into a vegetarian's house, and that person would be justified in raising an objection.
But, if it's a place open to the general public, I would dismiss such a person as being over-sensitive.
 
  • #89
Vagrant said:
What I am talking about is that certain things are inappropriate in certain contexts. I think that it would be inappropriate and disrespectful for me to bring meat into a vegetarian's house, and that person would be justified in raising an objection.
But, if it's a place open to the general public, I would dismiss such a person as being over-sensitive.

Yes. I agree with that.
 
  • #90
aquitaine said:
People don't have the right not to be offended.

I'm still trying to figure this one out. Could you please say this another way?