God & Physics: A Debate on Believing in Both

[Vossistarts]

NIce Insights there. I agree with you on fanaticism and insistance of some religious types being a manifestation of insecurities in their beliefs. Sometimes I feel really bad for those people, and also it makes me angry at the people responsible for conditioning and cajoling them, often as young children, into accepting a beliefs system that defies logic, defies common sense and intuition, claiming the unapparent is real and the apparent is false. Its like those people were abused, and in a way I think they are, living desperate lives desperately arguing points that even while they are so fragile the threat of turning away from them is immense and ultimately damning should those beliefs turn out to be truths after theyve dismissed them as unlikely. THeyre made to believe the truths in their hearts that are god given so to speak, are lies, and the fabrication of a religious mankind from a relatively primative time in the far distant history of social and intellectual development of humans are absolutely truths.


As for the whole god and creation thing. You have to acknowledge the remote possibility of a god creator amusing itself with random acts of invention being possible. Pretty unlikely, and Id think since a god is technically a thing, it would still have had to of had a creative source itself, making it mor like a demiurge.

I tend to think what it could come down to, is that at some point in time, as science follows the clues into the past present and future of the reality behind our and everythings being, the laws of science that will unfold with discovery will make the maddening weirdness of todays fanatics tale just a giggle next to mind-bending truths of just how and why it really is..

In my opinion the logical ordered universe is more of an indication that God didn't create it than that he did. Most scientists who believe in God see the hand of an intelligent designer in its logic and order, I feel just the opposite. Most religions were created when the laws of the universe weren't known and it was believed to be a place of magic and chaos. I think that model fits a creator much better than the logical universe that we know today. Take the concept of heaven for example. It is inherently just the opposite of the ordered universe, a metaphysical place. Why would the creator create an orderly logical universe when it could create an analog of the concept of heaven for his soul forge? It's like attributing bathroom graffiti and the Mona Lisa to the same artist.

Religion has evolved to accept science over the years but as we know more and more of the universe, religion is rebelling against science because they are becoming incompatable in the fanatical (read that born again and fundamentalist) religious view. You can see that happening everywhere but worst of all for the world here in the US. The cause I think is that deep down, fanatics have doubts about their beliefs and they react by trying to stifle anything that challenges those beliefs, namely science like evolution, and try to impose their beliefs on others. Fanatical religion is a sickness, a disease and it's spreading.

 

[Les Sleeth]

A creationist comes by and says . . .

I enjoyed your thinking except for one thing. Not everyone skeptical of Darwinistic evolution is a creationist. Some of us are uncommitted and simply refuse to buy into scientism's hyperbole any more than we are willing to buy religion's nonsense. I have not seen anything in physical principles alone that would make me believe physicalness can achieve either abiogenesis or, for instance, a human brain via natural selection-genetic variation.

I don't have a problem with the universe being conscious somehow, and having that assist in it's development. But I also wouldn't have a problem with accepting that physicalness could achieve that if I'd ever seen physicalness behaving with the organizational quality that would lead to life and (especially) consciousness.

 

[lawtonfogle]

The question turns on monism, the belief that there is only ONE explanation/cause for anything. If monism is true then one of the following seems to result:
1) God is the cause/explanation and science isn't
2) Science tells the cause/explanation and it isn't God.
3) Science tells the cause/explanation and it is God.
In item 3, God would be a consequence of scientific analysis, which seems to deny Christian doctrine (faith in things not seen) and Islamic doctrine (God's unknowability), and possibly Jewish doctrine (God's unrepresentability?). So no Abrahamic God. What about Buddhism and Hinduism?

This would make sense, if science could explain the first cause. But it can't. I have asked a doctorate in physics about this, and he said all we can do is say it happened. We don't know how, and God could have done it for all we know. Because, when the singlelarity exploded, time began. What happened in the first planks time (I think that is what it is called) science can't explain, because time was created then also. Now for thoses who say the universe recycles itself, if time is in the direction of entropy, whenever the universe is recycling itself it is going back wards in time. So it never goes on forever, but back and foward between to points. Only a system with an infinite amount of energy could go on forever, becuase if there was no entropy, there would be no increase in it, and so no time; and if their was a limited amount, sooner or later, we would run out of enough organized information to hold what time it is, and past that, it will be complete entropy.

 

[Tisthammerw]

A creationist comes by and says . . .

I enjoyed your thinking except for one thing. Not everyone skeptical of Darwinistic evolution is a creationist.

True, very true; and I never meant to imply otherwise. Still, creationists are among the most vociferous of anti-evolutionists, so it seemed good to instantiate here. I myself am not a Biblical creationist (i.e. the literal interpretation of the Genesis creation story) but I am skeptical of neo-Darwinism and especially abiogenesis.

But I think that neo-Darwinism (evolution via mutation and natural selection) will go the way of Newtonian mechanics. Scientists will say, “Okay, maybe it doesn't encompass as big a domain as we once thought.” It'll be limited, but not completely abandoned. I see no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Does neo-Darwinism explain some variation? Absolutely! I think neo-Darwinism can explain a great deal of variation; evolve new species, genera and perhaps even families. On the other hand, we haven't seen any (at least not directly) empirical evidence that it can account for all of life’s diversity via producing larger-order changes (e.g. producing new organs). It would seem that there are limits to this sort of mechanism.

I suspect some kind of artificial intervention is necessary for the larger evolutionary changes to have occurred. What do you think? What's your theory of how they came about?

 

[Les Sleeth]

True, very true; and I never meant to imply otherwise. Still, creationists are among the most vociferous of anti-evolutionists, so it seemed good to instantiate here. I myself am not a Biblical creationist (i.e. the literal interpretation of the Genesis creation story) but I am skeptical of neo-Darwinism and especially abiogenesis.
But I think that neo-Darwinism (evolution via mutation and natural selection) will go the way of Newtonian mechanics. Scientists will say, “Okay, maybe it doesn't encompass as big a domain as we once thought.” It'll be limited, but not completely abandoned. I see no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Does neo-Darwinism explain some variation? Absolutely! I think neo-Darwinism can explain a great deal of variation; evolve new species, genera and perhaps even families. On the other hand, we haven't seen any (at least not directly) empirical evidence that it can account for all of life’s diversity via producing larger-order changes (e.g. producing new organs). It would seem that there are limits to this sort of mechanism.
I suspect some kind of artificial intervention is necessary for the larger evolutionary changes to have occurred. What do you think? What's your theory of how they came about?

Hey, are you my long lost missing twin or what?

Check out the debate "Are We Intelligently Designed?" On page 5 and/or 6 I offer some alternatives to pure Darwinism.

 

[Tournesol]

This would make sense, if science could explain the first cause. But it can't.

And religion can do better ? Is saying "It was caused by an incomprehensible
Being" an improvement on "We don't knwo what caused it?"

 

[Tisthammerw]

Hey, are you my long lost missing twin or what?

Probably not. I suspect we have a number of differing views (e.g. regarding theism).

Check out the debate "Are We Intelligently Designed?" On page 5 and/or 6 I offer some alternatives to pure Darwinism.

I did see something about "universal consciousness," which sounds a little too mystical for me (at least regarding science) though that sort of thing causing evolutionary changes is compatible with intelligent design (since it says that artificial intervention is necessary, not who or what did it). Intelligent design is more "scientifically" testable than the pantheistic possibility you suggested (see post #146 of that thread), so perhaps we might find some common ground there.

 

[Nomy-the wanderer]

It seems that I'm joining this a bit late, but someone said earlier in this thread thta he believes that people believe in god because they think that divinity tells them what was there and how to understand science...

Maybe that is true for muslims, my muslim friends always say that they believe in Quran because it gives them the facts they need, and day by day, the science proved it, I'm no Quran reader so i donno how correct is that.

But i don't think all religions are like that...In a way u people are right, at some point science and God will meet, and things aren't any longer separate for u, still that doesn't make u dump science if u r a God believer...
And what do we seek? Truth? God is THE TRUTH and for me this is how it goes..So the need of God is always there because, u never know how true is ur science, or how decieving it might be, u always want to refer to an origin point that u can rely on...And that's a human need, that's why people need God..
From another point once u are a believer, there's a feel u get for God, either u love or hate him or both...

The thing is, u can't disprove God, and u donno what's his definition, the one i love is that God is Love, and love is everywhere when u seek for it...

And hence god is true, because the definition i chose works for me well so far, when u say a theory is true, u say so because u can experimentally see that it really works, and u might just need more than an experiment, and sometimes, u can have an experiment that would destruct all ur previous work...

Correct me if I'm wrong..

 

[coffee na lang dear]

There have been so many versions/explanations (spiritually and scientifically) that starts with an assumption and ends with a question.

If I may re-phrase what Mk wrote in the early replies about what St. Thomas puts in poem originally as:

Things are in motion, hence there is a first mover.
Things are caused, hence there is a first cause
Things exist, hence there is a creator
Perfect goodness exists, hence it has a source
Things are designed, hense they serve a purpose

into:

There is a first mover, hence things are in motion.
There is a first cause, hence things are caused.
There is a creator, hence things exists.
There is a source, hence perfect goodness exists,
There is a purpose, hence things are designed.

But through all these logical thinking, it will always lead to:

Who was the first mover? How?
Who causes it?/What causes it? How?
Who is the creator? How?
Who/What is the sourced? How?
Who/What is the purpose? How?

and to top all these questions is the question WHY?

I can understand why PF stopped the Religious forums because it could lead to 'unending' questions as replies from the readers and thus unending debates and defense of what each of us believe. As T.H. Huxley generalize it: "Never has there been so clear an appreciation of the unity of all phenomena, and hence of the absurdity of both materialism and spiritualism."

Back to Tido611's question on: how can you be a man of science and The Church?...it will still lead to the question WHY NOT?

and so on and so forth...

 

[chaos_5]

... i was just wondering how can you be a man of science and The Church?

The Church and science have a long and bitter history, and seem mostly incompatible. I think this is due to a struggle to maintain control and power. The Church sees science as a threat and science tends to discount God because he/she/it can not be measured or observed.

I think a better question is how can you be a man of science and faith?

To this I have an answer. Easy, the two are separate and non-competitive. It’s not difficult to imagine God created all the laws of universe, and set them in motion for us to discover. The bible said God created Man in His own image, if this is true it stands to reason that we would eagerly seek out and try to understand the workings of the universe and try to recreate facets of it.

 

[Tisthammerw]

This would make sense, if science could explain the first cause. But it can't.

And religion can do better ? Is saying "It was caused by an incomprehensible
Being" an improvement on "We don't knwo what caused it?"

If it’s the best explanation, yes. My own belief after thinking about such matters is that God is the best explanation for:

• the caused beginning of the universe
• the existence of objective moral values
• the existence of the human soul
• etc.

Whether you agree with this or not, note that some of these things are beyond the scope of science (the existence of ethics and the soul fall under the realm of philosophy). One of the reasons why the “God of the gaps” argument (the claim that religious flourishes in the gaps that science continues to fill) against theism doesn’t quite work is that science can’t give us a complete explanation for everything even in principle.

 

[Tisthammerw]

The Church and science have a long and bitter history

...that has often been exaggerated (Galileo, Darwin etc.). Anti-religious stories often leave out important and relevant facts. One example: beginning with the recovery of ancient learning in the twelfth century and continuing through the Copernican upheavals and on even into the Enlightenment, the Roman Catholic Church gave more financial and social support to the study of astronomy--Copernican and otherwise--than did any other institution.

Easy, the two are separate and non-competitive. It’s not difficult to imagine God created all the laws of universe, and set them in motion for us to discover.

Indeed, many of the founding fathers of modern science (nearly all of which were Christians or at least theists) took the same attitude. Additionally, it was Cardinal Baronius who had declared that the “Holy Ghost intended to teach us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go.”

 

[JEscribir]

I think Science and Religion go hand to hand. There is tons of science in the Judo-Christian Bible and Islam Quran(Koran); not necessarily very specific to things like quantum mechanics or higher level of mathematics but non the less its still impressive and poetic. Nowadays there are a lot of people in Churchs,temples,mosque,etc... Who are theistic evolution some in my own family are and they presue careers in Science.

So Science and Religion don't always make a good fight on pay-per-view, of course in some cases conflicts arise between the two.

 

[Nomy-the wanderer]

The conflict arises between people as usual...

 

[Zlex]

A lot of my physics friends talk of god in such ways that leed me to believe that they believe in him/her/it (whichever) but I am not so convinced. It has always been my understanding that it is one or the other, how could one beileve in god when we ourselves understand most of what is happening around us and we are working toward the rest. I mean no disrespect or ill will to any religious poeple but i was just wondering how can you be a man of science and The Church?
I was just wanting some insight from both sides of this argument
( i wasnt quite sure if this thread should even be under this topic but i felt it was most appropriate)

'Science' and religion are 100% orthogonal; neither has any means of casting any weight or even shadow upon the other.

It's why mankind embraces both. Between the two of them, we got existence pretty much covered on all axes.

By definition, science is and will remian forever impotent in either proving or disproving the existence of the concept 'God'. By definition, science has no means to do so. It's a totally rigged problem, scientists have no business weighing in one way or the other; they are either faulty scientists, or they don't fully understand the concept 'God.'

The most truthful, fully scientific and rational answer to the question "Does God Exist?" that a dyed in the wool scientist can honestly ever make is "I don't know, if I have to decide, it can only be as matter of faith one way or the other."

even in the hypothetical/mythical confrontation with a being candidate presenting itself as 'God.'

fully understanding the limits of science and the by definition non-limits on the concept of 'God,' a scientist would have to concede that even in such an asburd laboratory experiment( "God" subjecting himself to the jump through Ant Hoop circus demonstrations demanded by ants pressing their little claims, "Are you really God and not just some advanced species ****ing with us ants?"), science would be totally and uterly useless in answering that simple question, "Are you really God?"

What would such an Ant Hoop demand be? "Bring back the dead?" "Make cripples walk again?"

Too late, happens every day.

How about, "Show me what's going on on the other side of the village--county--state--nation--earth--solar system--universe--right now?" Take your pick, at whatever the current level of merely technological advancement you think is sufficient to prove that you are dealing with God and not some slick species merely 500 years more advanced than we are now...

How about, "Transport me across the village...county...state...nation...earth...sola r system...universe...?"

How about, "restore life from this bit of DNA?" Oooh, fantastic.

How about some fantastic causality blowing demand? And when the God candidate gets tired of our petulant little demands for parlor tricks , laughs and says, "Sorry, can't do that," do we:

a] Throw up our little ant hands and claim, "Aha! Then, you are not God, and that is proof, because you failed to jump through our little Ant Hoops!"

b] Scratch our heads, get out our God-O-Meter, and try our little scientific best to figure out if God just chose not to jump through our little Ant Hoops? Where's our control? How do folks repeat our little experiment, and get repeatable results? God might be busy, maybe one sit down for a lab experiment per species is all we get...


The purpose of the above hypothetical experiment is to amuse, and to demonstrate that, even when given its best shot (a curiously cooperative God willing to subject himself to our little Ant Hoop tests, "Here, jump through our Ant Hoops, prove to us you are God!"), science is totally unable to gird itself up to answer the question, "Are you ~really~ God?"

Maybe a demi-God. Maybe some species just 500 years more advanced then we are. Maybe God. Maybe God ****ing with us, pretending not to be God, see what we'd do? Who knows? Not science. By definition. And even in the ability to disprove via destructive testing, (Well, we took out a S&W 500 and shot the subject, and sure enough, he died), unable ever to answer the big question, "This is getting tiring; was this the last candidate for God?"

That leaves, for each and every one of us, even those of us who 'believe' that we've already been presented with undeniable in our face evidence one way or the other, a simple question of personal faith; we can never 'know' as in, what science claims it currently 'knows.'

We can never 'know,' we can never even 'prove.' We can only 'believe,' one way or the other, lockstep beliefs that can and will never be objectively provable one way or the other. Even, I might add, if we wake up in 'an after life.' All that would demonstrate is our misunderstanding of existence in the 'before life,' a change of the boundaries of our incomplete understanding of existence.

That is why I am a devout non-aligned agnostic theist. I recognize that all churches are 100% manmade fabrications. I recognize that all religions are 100% manmade fabrications. But, I also recognize that they are both 100% fabrications in response to an unanswerable fundamental question, and the fundamental question is rigged. "God?"

If you at least believe the Universe exists, then for all any of us know, the Universe as it is is God, not our childish ant hoop demands of what God should look like or what ant hoops God must jump through before God is God.

OTOH, if someone knows the Universe exists, and simultaneously claims to believe or even know that God does not, I can only ask how they could 'know' that, and wonder where that religious fervor comes from?

I'm not a true believer; I'm a true 'don't know but believer.' I believe in a notion of God that I can never know, but am grateful to anyway, even if it is just one fantastic ride in this maybe imperfect Universe. I can't subscribe to the ingrate demand that there be a 'better life' waiting then the Universe that plainly exists. If this is the one and only ride, I wan't to be fully prepared to be grateful, and plainly just say 'Thank-you.'

If it turns out I am grateful to nothing more than an uncaring Universe, well, I'll never know, and in the meantime, I can live with that.

I've spent most of my life in and around science/engineering of some type, and for the life of me, do not understand the antagonism between religion and science, excpet on the basis of some misplaced religious fervor/turf war thing. There is no scientific basis for the antagonism, and there is no religious basis for the antagonism; for all we ants know with our religious ant hoops, God chose science and evolution and so on as his means of letting the Universe spin away. Who are we to tell God how to be God? Miracles aren't miracle enough, they got to be '7 day miracles' or else God is not God?

All that is the fabricated manmade religious literature of ancient men long dead. They may not have known it, but they didn't know, too, just like us also just naked sweaty apes.

 

[Critical_Pedagogy]

I mean no disrespect or ill will to any religious poeple but i was just wondering how can you be a man of science and The Church?
I was just wanting some insight from both sides of this argument

If you're from Kansas, you can be a man of science and the Church.

 

[Nomy-the wanderer]

I remember I've read the names of many priests who were working on developping some theories of physics, but i wish i could only remember the names...

I still don't understand what kinda contradiction should be between church and science, or religion and science or God and science?

 

[Quadratic]

I remember I've read the names of many priests who were working on developping some theories of physics, but i wish i could only remember the names...
I still don't understand what kinda contradiction should be between church and science, or religion and science or God and science?

I didn't read a page or two of this thread yet, so I'm not sure if this was touched on before, but I think that Einstein put it best in saying that reality as we know it is a persistent illusion. In other words, it can be argued that all the rules of physics, and the laws of nature in general, are part of a grand illusion created by God. I think that being a religious scientist is very possible, since you can look at science as a way of understanding the "persistant illusion" that God created.