God: Purpose for a Supreme Being?

[Moridin]

This is often taken as evidence that we create God, but I suggest that it stands as evidence that God exists.

I will not bother to point out this logical fallacy. A lot of people believed in instantaneous creation for thousands of years. That must mean that it is true. The along came Darwin.

An interesting book on the origins of religion is 'Religion Explained: The Evolutionary Origins of Religious Thought' by Pascal Boyer. As for evidence, the Universe is entirely consistent with a lack of design. Stenger covered this quite well in 'God: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows that God Does Not Exist'.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0465006965/?tag=pfamazon01-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1591024811/?tag=pfamazon01-20

 

[JoeDawg]

What I see and what you see are as far a part as apples are from oranges.

Have you ever seen something like this in the world around you?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bananas_on_countertop.JPG
Have you ever seen something like this in the world around you?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drosophila_melanogaster

If so, then we both have seen them. Whatever they are, we can compare our perceptions.
If not, then go to a fruit market and you can see both.

Now please show me god or where to find him.
It is you who are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[JoeDawg]

Uh. Simplistic. Not the same as simple. You reveal your biases when you say such things. You don't seriously put them forth as definitions, even in your own opinion.

Absolutely. Everyone does. That is why I posted them.

Loving, hating, suffering, sacrifice, altruism. The things that we consider more than merely animal; the things that don't seem to be explainable merely through biology.

That you consider. Sure they seem explainable, to anyone with an understanding of biology who isn't biased by religious indoctrination.

Read: The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins. Its all very simplistic.

 

[Moridin]

'Love', 'Hate', 'Suffering', 'Sacrifice' and 'Altruism' have well-defined natural explanations which replaces supernaturalistic explanations, just like naturalistic explanations of weather cycles replaces rain dance.

 

[DaveC426913]

They do. I'm not saying they don't. But that doesn't mean there is only one way to describe something in terms useful to human understanding. Science is not our only recourse; it does not cover art, philosophy or a number of other uniquely human accomplishments.

"...to anyone with an understanding of biology who isn't biased by religious, artistic philosophical or any number of other human created disciplines... indoctrination."

 

[cosmicparox]

well we can see that the Earth (mud.soil rock etc) serves the plants, the plants then serve the animals,then some of the animals serve bigger animals, and in the end if we see every other thing on this planet+ even the sun etc serves the HUMAN BEINGS! if u think of it as a pyramid the human being comes on the top.. But fer a moment if u analyze.. HUman beings really arent the supreme being.. dey are not even sure of the next moment.. dey are unable to live fer ever.. if dey dnt get food dey die..if dey get handicapped dey become slaves to other human beings and gadets, evry other human is a slave to something or somebody, some ppl are slave to their friends, some to money, some are slaves of their ego, and some are slaves to everythings so i don't think human beings are supreme.. dey can't create planets , nor can dey create the universe,
so dere must be some one more powerful, some one unlike us..even if dere are some aleins who can create da universe den dere must b s0me body who created them.. so here God is the supreme POwer.. and yes He does exist.. NO doubt about dat.

 

[Moridin]

They do. I'm not saying they don't. But that doesn't mean there is only one way to describe something in terms useful to human understanding. Science is not our only recourse; it does not cover art, philosophy or a number of other uniquely human accomplishments.

Science can certainly explain art, philosophy and so on, but art is not a procedural protocol or an epistemology and philosophy is an integral part of science. Science is (currently) our only method for understanding our world that is both methodologically and epistemologically justifiable.

 

[Gokul43201]

HUman beings really arent the supreme being.. dey are not even sure of the next moment.. dey are unable to live fer ever.. if dey dnt get food dey die..if dey get handicapped dey become slaves to other human beings and gadets, evry other human is a slave to something or somebody, some ppl are slave to their friends, some to money, some are slaves of their ego, and some are slaves to everythings so i don't think human beings are supreme.. dey can't create planets , nor can dey create the universe,

Heck, some of them can't even spell correctly!

 

[cosmicparox]

every thing has a purpose in this world.. so dere must be a purpose fer the human beings.. we never came here on our own.. or did we? and we don't even go back on our own... if every other thing has a purpose every other lil thing in this universe has a purpose den the so called supreme human must be havin one too.. if the purpose was to work hard to eat, sleep and reproduce den we are no different den animals.. wants are endless the wants never end.. we die but dey dnt stop.. i go to the graveyards and see this is the ultimate resting place? this will be my fate one day.. no matter how rich i become no matter how high i go.. the day death greets me i will be nothing but a dead corpse.. everything multiplied by zero!? like the mr.supreme being on this planet can't do anything.. i dnt think dats true.. like hitler killed so many jews and he died a death he preffered .. dat is like injustice to the other so many human beings.. who `ll give dem justice.. like money can't return dere killed loved ones.. so here's where the after life comes in .. the real party starts den,.. the real life.. dis one is a mirage.. dis is fake.. if the fake luks so real m dyin to see the real one.. think abt it ppl

 

[cosmicparox]

:p hell yea dey can't even spell correctly..

 

[baywax]

Loving, hating, suffering, sacrifice, altruism. The things that we consider more than merely animal; the things that don't seem to be explainable merely through biology. I say "seem" to be, because it can be explained biologically, but the invention of God is another way of dealing with it.

None of us were on the moon with Buzz Aldrin but most of us believe he was there. Is there a biological reason for people to think Buzz was actually on the moon? Why do people put their biologically generated faith and beliefs into what other people tell them? Is this the "easy" way to placate some of our nervous (and thus biological) anxiety?

 

[Evo]

every thing has a purpose in this world.. so dere must be a purpose fer the human beings.. we never came here on our own.. or did we? and we don't even go back on our own... if every other thing has a purpose every other lil thing in this universe has a purpose den the so called supreme human must be havin one too.. if the purpose was to work hard to eat, sleep and reproduce den we are no different den animals.. wants are endless the wants never end.. we die but dey dnt stop.. i go to the graveyards and see this is the ultimate resting place? this will be my fate one day.. no matter how rich i become no matter how high i go.. the day death greets me i will be nothing but a dead corpse.. everything multiplied by zero!? like the mr.supreme being on this planet can't do anything.. i dnt think dats true.. like hitler killed so many jews and he died a death he preffered .. dat is like injustice to the other so many human beings.. who `ll give dem justice.. like money can't return dere killed loved ones.. so here's where the after life comes in .. the real party starts den,.. the real life.. dis one is a mirage.. dis is fake.. if the fake luks so real m dyin to see the real one.. think abt it ppl

This is what is so wrong with religion, "don't worry about this life, there's a better one waiting for you after you die". This causes so many people to fail to make the best of the only life they'll have, some false promise of a wonderful afterlife. Even if you want to cling to the belief that there is an afterlife, live this one like it's all you will ever have.

Also, I realize that English isn't your first language, but please make an effort to use real English words. "dat dem dey den dere dis dats" are not acceptable, replacing "th" with a "d" is not acceptable. From now on I expect you to use the proper words.

 

[baywax]

Now please show me god or where to find him.

There's plenty of people who can help you with that. Personally, I have no clue what you're talking about.

As for your references concerning bananas and fruit flies... these are not acceptable as proof that you have seen or eaten them.

 

[DaveC426913]

Science is (currently) our only method for understanding our world that is both methodologically and epistemologically justifiable.

Yes, that's true.

But discovery through science is not all there is to being human.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This is what is so wrong with religion, "don't worry about this life, there's a better one waiting for you after you die". This causes so many people to fail to make the best of the only life they'll have, some false promise of a wonderful afterlife. Even if you want to cling to the belief that there is an afterlife, live this one like it's all you will ever have.

There is a difference between faith and fanaticism. The fanatics get all of the press.

 

[JoeDawg]

There's plenty of people who can help you with that. Personally, I have no clue what you're talking about.

As for your references concerning bananas and fruit flies... these are not acceptable as proof that you have seen or eaten them.

I don't need to prove that. I have shown you where to find them. Are you denying they are there? Are you denying that I have shown you where to find them? That you looked and they are not there. If so, you have shown me to be wrong.

Please state this, or admit that they are indeed where I told you. Then, since you have claimed they are the same as god, show me what god is and where to find it. I will look and report back. Its simplistic, even.

If this is not the case, you are wrong, your claim is wrong, god and a banana are not the same.

 

[JoeDawg]

They do. I'm not saying they don't. But that doesn't mean there is only one way to describe something in terms useful to human understanding. Science is not our only recourse; it does not cover art, philosophy or a number of other uniquely human accomplishments.

"...to anyone with an understanding of biology who isn't biased by religious, artistic philosophical or any number of other human created disciplines... indoctrination."

Science is an extension of philosophical inquiry into what we call empirical investigation. Its not a separate thing. Philosophy is the logical and reasoning end of that investigation.

Art is very much covered on both ends, by what we call psychology, sociology, even political science(on the more philosophical end) and physics and biology(on the more empirical end).

As to it being uniquely human, that's a function of our intelligence and leisure. We really don't know how common we are in the universe, we hardly have a representative sample. Are we unique, maybe, are we a short-lived aberration, all depends how you place value. Completely arbitrary at this point.

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't need to prove that. I have shown you where to find them. Are you denying they are there? Are you denying that I have shown you where to find them? That you looked and they are not there. If so, you have shown me to be wrong.

Please state this, or admit that they are indeed where I told you. Then, since you have claimed they are the same as god, show me what god is and where to find it. I will look and report back. Its simplistic, even.

If this is not the case, you are wrong, your claim is wrong, god and a banana are not the same.

Not quite a simple as that. I'll use an example slightly less concrete than fruit flies.

I can tell you the subjective emotion of fear exists but I can't take you and show you. Sure, there's a process I could lead you through so that you might experience it too, but there's no guarantee you will. Would you deny the emotion of fear existed if you hadn't previously felt it? Despite billions of people who claim to have experienced it themselves?




(I put my usual, boilerplate disclaimer in here: I am an atheist; I do not believe in God. But I find some people seem to think that science is a weapon they can use to bludgeon others, and that's difficult to countenance. As I like to say: the only thing worse than a religious zealot is a science zealot - they are usually committing the very crime they accuse religion of.)

 

[DaveC426913]

Art is very much covered on both ends, by what we call psychology, sociology, even political science(on the more philosophical end) and physics and biology(on the more empirical end).

Ah, so you're a reductionist. Ok, that's one approach among many.

It astonishes me how people claiming to scientifically-minded can be so sure there's only One True Answer.

As to it being uniquely human, that's a function of our intelligence and leisure. We really don't know how common we are in the universe, we hardly have a representative sample. Are we unique, maybe, are we a short-lived aberration, all depends how you place value. Completely arbitrary at this point.

I can't believe you just shot yourself in the foot.

There's no reason to believe in ET life any more or less than God. Yet here you are happy to use it as part of your own argument.

Oh SNAP!

 

[JoeDawg]

There is a difference between faith and fanaticism. The fanatics get all of the press.

Is it really just a matter of extremism or being outwardly dangerous? People who believe in elves or fairies, who actually believe in them, may not have a dangerous(at least relative to me) belief, but it could be just as strong, they might spend all their resources and, essentially ruin/waste their lives due to this belief, all very quietly and calmly.

When I think of all the scientists in history, those men of faith(what a bitter word), who, if they could have lived without religious faith... without that straitjacket of irrational belief... what they would have accomplished. Sorry, I realize your faith probably 'gives you something' you consider positive, but by any god you care to name, all I see is a horrible waste of potential.

 

[JoeDawg]

There's no reason to believe in ET life any more or less than God. Yet here you are happy to use it as part of your own argument.

I don't believe in ETs, we haven't seen any proof as far as I know, but we know there is life on earth. We know what it looks like. We can measure it. Extrapolating a possibility that it may exist elsewhere is not irrational. Planets and suns exist elsewhere.

Show me a godthing that exists here on earth. I am quite happy to admit what I don't know, but that doesn't make supernatural nonsense any more likely.

 

[JoeDawg]

I can tell you the subjective emotion of fear exists but I can't take you and show you.

Again back to apples and oranges, you are comparing things with obviously different qualities as if they are alike. A god, a fruit fly and an emotion are qualitatively different.

But even an emotional response can be measured in the lab. Fear is a biochemical reaction as much as it is anything else. And subjective or not, when someone describes fear, I can relate that description, to something I have experienced and then compare it to what we know about biology. I have multiple sources, a very concrete thing, even if 'fear' is somewhat hard to describe.

God however is not a feeling, god is a 'conclusion' about a feeling. What you should be comparing... and I wouldn't disagree here, is the emotion of fear is similar to (and to some poor souls, indistinguishable from) the feeling of 'awe' or 'joy' people associate with 'the presence of divinity'.

That feeling is very real, the 'conclusion' its caused by a vengeful sky elf, is not.

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't believe in ETs, we haven't seen any proof as far as I know, but we know there is life on earth. We know what it looks like. We can measure it. Extrapolating a possibility that it may exist elsewhere is not irrational. Planets and suns exist elsewhere.

Show me a godthing that exists here on earth. I am quite happy to admit what I don't know, but that doesn't make supernatural nonsense any more likely.

You used the possibility of life elsewhere to refute my claim that we are unique. It doesn't matter whether there are things elsewhere, or whether you believe them, it is enough that they might exist. That is enough for you.

And it is enough for other people too.

No one said you have to believe there is a God, only that you acknowledge that 'it doesn't exist' is not the only answer.

 

[DaveC426913]

Again back to apples and oranges, you are comparing things with obviously different qualities as if they are alike. A god, a fruit fly and an emotion are qualitatively different.

What I am doing is showing you that the tests you use to determine if something is real or not are unreliable. So far, you have no test that shows God is an apple while everything else is an orange.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Is it really just a matter of extremism or being outwardly dangerous? People who believe in elves or fairies, who actually believe in them, may not have a dangerous(at least relative to me) belief, but it could be just as strong, they might spend all their resources and, essentially ruin/waste their lives due to this belief, all very quietly and calmly.

How exactly does a belief translate into a wasted life; fairy conventions? We all have beliefs that can't be justified.

When I think of all the scientists in history, those men of faith(what a bitter word), who, if they could have lived without religious faith... without that straitjacket of irrational belief... what they would have accomplished. Sorry, I realize your faith probably 'gives you something' you consider positive, but by any god you care to name, all I see is a horrible waste of potential.

I have to wonder how much time you've wasted denying the existence of God when your position can never be proven.

How does my belief result in a wasted life again? I wouldn't trade my life for anyone's.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Research Shows Religion Plays A Major Role In Health, Longevity

Being good has its rewards in this life, as well as in the next.

Research conducted partly at the University of Colorado at Boulder has found that regular churchgoers live longer than people who seldom or never attend worship services.

For the first time, that extra lifespan has been quantified. While there are differences between genders and races, in general those who go to church once or more each week can look forward to about seven more years than those who never attend.

Life expectancy beyond age 20 averages another 55.3 years, to age 75, for those who never attend church compared to another 62.9 years, age 83, for those who go more than once a week.[continued]

http://www.colorado.edu/news/releases/1999/209.html

Also, it may be okay to pick on fairies, but you had better leave the elves alone
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=50063&highlight=hobbits

Oh yes, and most scientists probably agree that there are ETs out there, somewhere.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Whoops, and I had to add this:

...In fact, people who get a good workout almost daily can add nearly four years to their life spans, according to the first study to quantify the impact of physical activity this way.[continued]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/14/AR2005111401051.html

So it would seem that faith makes more sense than exercise.

 

[cosmicparox]

This is what is so wrong with religion, "don't worry about this life, there's a better one waiting for you after you die". This causes so many people to fail to make the best of the only life they'll have, some false promise of a wonderful afterlife. Even if you want to cling to the belief that there is an afterlife, live this one like it's all you will ever have.

Also, I realize that English isn't your first language, but please make an effort to use real English words. "dat dem dey den dere dis dats" are not acceptable, replacing "th" with a "d" is not acceptable. From now on I expect you to use the proper words.

yeah english isn't my first language. :P See i have been hearing this and that about religion why don't we study and analyze it.. i talked to many professors of comparitive religion, and i myself am studying christianity and islam.

<edit: removed religious references - MIH>

And yea i agree when you say that "live this life as its all we have" but this life is a foundation for the next one.. its kind of an investment.. see what we people are talking and discussing is something we have heard about religion or things that our elders told us.. it would be better if we ourselves study religion and then discuss..

 

[baywax]

god and a banana are not the same.

Many people... like about 2 billion or more, would disagree. Do the sheer numbers of people who believe a banana is god (or a part thereof) make them right? You and I can disagree with 2 or 4 billion people all we want but, in the end, does majority rule on this one?

 

[baywax]

I wouldn't trade my life for anyone's.

I don't believe you Ivan. You are a star candidate for heroism and altruistic behaviour. Faith can move mountains and I believe it would move you to risk or even "trade" your life for another human being's.