God & Science: A Look at Possibilities

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The discussion centers around the intersection of science, belief in God, and the interpretation of scientific theories versus religious narratives. Participants express frustration with the prevalence of secular explanations in scientific literature, arguing that the possibility of God should not be dismissed. They reference prominent scientists who held religious beliefs, suggesting that personal faith does not negate scientific inquiry. However, a strong emphasis is placed on the importance of empirical evidence and the scientific method, with assertions that supernatural explanations are incompatible with scientific principles. The conversation also delves into the definitions of atheism and agnosticism, highlighting the nuanced differences between not believing in God and being uncertain about God's existence. Participants argue that agnosticism is often misrepresented and stress the importance of evidence in forming beliefs. Ultimately, the discussion reflects a broader debate about the validity of religious beliefs in the context of scientific understanding and the nature of knowledge itself.
  • #51
I don't believe in god. Both the fact there is no evidence for a supernatural being, and I just find the whole idea tedious By that definition I am an atheist.I lack a belief in a god.

However I also don't claim the knowledge that gods don't exist, so by the definition I am also agnostic.

My position is weak atheist, or agnostic atheist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheismIf you had to put me in a box and label me up th would be this ^^^^^^^^
 
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  • #52
Do you recognise the fact that: not konwing and not believeing are two different positions?
Yes, but how can you believe something you don't know to be true?
Since when was not being a theist being an atheist?
Being a theist means you believe, not being a theist means you don't believe, not believing makes you an atheist.
This is where leroys argument breaks down. He is saying that if you don't believe the positive, you must neessarily believe the negative. However this is not the case, it is infact a false dichotomy. You can believe neither position and take a middle or no ground based on the lack of knowledge
If you're taking the middle ground, that means you're not a theist, which means you don't believe what they do, which makes you an atheist. If you believed, then you would be a theist, but since you don't, you're an atheist.
However I also don't claim the knowledge that gods don't exist, so by the definition I am also agnostic.
What atheist claims knowledge that god doesn't exist? No smart ones do. That's impossible to know.
 
  • #53
leroyjenkens said:
Yes, but how can you believe something you don't know to be true?

Those religious types do it ALL the time.

It could also occur in the case of your firend with the gold. If you friend never EVER told a lie, you would be inclined to believe him without knowing. This is where personal judgement comes in. If your firend was a known practical joker who makes something up for kicks, then you would be less inclined to believe him. You would not know for sure until evidence was presented.

Gold is quite rare (so would require more faith in the person that they are telling the truth). If they made a mundane claim, such as they found a penny, that is a common occurence so you can be inclined to believe without any evidence..

Or for example: I believe my car is parked outside now. I don't know it is beucase I can't currently see it, it could have been stolen.

leroyjenkens said:
Being a theist means you believe, not being a theist means you don't believe, not believing makes you an atheist.
If you're taking the middle ground, that means you're not a theist, which means you don't believe what they do, which makes you an atheist. If you believed, then you would be a theist, but since you don't, you're an atheist.

If you are taking the dead middle ground it means you are neither. Thats the whole point of defining a word for the middle ground.

It's also a very rare case in a human that you get a dead middle ground, you will tend to lean one way or the other. Which is why the word agnostic can apply to both atheists and theists alike.

It's also the rason why you can't claim that all agnostics are atheists. Not only becuase one deals with belief and the other deals with kowledge which are not mutually exclusive, but it's possible to have the position of not knowing something but beliving in it.
 
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  • #54
leroyjenkens said:
What atheist claims knowledge that god doesn't exist? No smart ones do. That's impossible to know.

It's the definition of strong atheist.

I also believe it's as crazy a position to take as saying gods definitely do exist.
 
  • #55
Those religious types do it ALL the time.
I think they really think they know it to be true, regardless of the fact that we know they don't.
If you are taking the dead middle ground it means you are neither. Thats the whole point of defining a word for the middle ground.

It's also a very rare case in a human that you get a dead middle ground, you will tend to lean one way or the other. Which is why the word agnostic can apply to both atheists and theists alike.
My argument is that it is black and white. If you're an agnostic and you lean towards theist on the religion line you created, do you believe in god? No? Then you're an atheist. If you do, then you're a theist. The only time you're a theist is if you believe in god, anywhere below that on the line is atheist, since you don't believe it.
but it's possible to have the position of not knowing something but beliving in it.
That's a theist position. No one knows, but some may claim they do. That doesn't change what atheist and agnostic means.
It's the definition of strong atheist.

I also believe it's as crazy a position to take as saying gods definitely do exist.
So by you saying that, you're saying that the only true atheists are the "strong atheists".
 
  • #56
gkc2294 said:
Every time I read a physics or modern science magazine, it always talks about evolution, our universe forming from others, and other secular stuff. Why can't God be considered as a possibility. I mean its not as if all modern scientists don't believe in God. Some of the greatest scientists are openly monotheistic (Stephen Hawking, Robert Penrose, ALBERT EINSTEIN, Michio Kaku.)

Hi gkc. Speaking from the position of someone who does believe in God (which makes me a minority among physicists)...

There are two issues here. The first is the consideration of God's role in the universe when we do science. A lot of people believe that God should be given credit for all physical processes (that isn't exactly what you said in your post, but I'm guessing you adhere to this philosophy). The problem with saying "God is responsible" is that from a scientific point of view, it's an absolutely useless statement. If you believe in a God who is actually worthy of that title, then you believe he is responsible for everything that happens. So why bother mentioning this at all? It would be impractical to glorify God for every single physical process that has to be considered in any scientific experiment. Besides that, science is concerned with "how" question, not "why" questions. Saying "God did it" adds absolutely nothing to an explanation of how diffusive shock acceleration creates high energy cosmic rays or how stars collapse into degenerate matter. For any religious scientist who is good at his job, giving God credit for physical processes would not be beneficial in any way, because you'd have to take the time to give God credit for every single thing that happens. Even according to most theologians this would be a waste of time rather than God-honoring. If you are a scientist who believes in God, it's better to take time, outside of your research, to give credit to God in whatever way you feel is best. But as far as scientific inquiry goes, there's no point in inserting the word "God" into your scientific papers. That's just meaningless.

The second issue is using religious doctrine to formulate scientific theses. You mention evolution and the formation of our universe from others. The latter is highly speculative (almost to the point of being a religion rather than science), so I won't go into it. But as for evolution, biologists have physical evidence backing up their theories. This isn't just a matter of evil atheist conspirators sitting in back rooms trying to figure out how to drag more people to hell with them. Lots of religious people believe in evolution. Even if you don't, it's contrary to the doctrines of most religions to make up lies in order to defend one's beliefs. Don't take this as any sort of personal offense, but basically all creation "scientists" are liars. I have never met one creationist who used legitimate scientific facts to make even a mildly convincing argument against evolution. If you try to negate physically observable facts, you're bound to lose.

As a theist I'm probably a bit more sympathetic to the creationism people than most (even if I don't agree with them). If you've got a legitimate argument against evolution, I'm willing to hear you out. All I ask is that you not go to the Answers in Genesis page and quote from their laughable arguments, or use some other already-refuted argument against evolution. I'm speaking somewhat rhetorically here; in evolution's 100+ year history, no one has come up with a valid argument against it. But hey, there's a first time for everything.
 
  • #57
leroyjenkens said:
My argument is that it is black and white. If you're an agnostic and you lean towards theist on the religion line you created, do you believe in god? No? Then you're an atheist. If you do, then you're a theist. The only time you're a theist is if you believe in god, anywhere below that on the line is atheist, since you don't believe it.

This is based on the assumption that you can't believe something you don't know to be true. Which is false. You can believe something in the absence of evidence, but ratioanlly know that without evidence you cannot say for cartain.

If I can believe my car is parked outside, but not know it for sure. Someone can believe there is a god without knowing. I don't find it partucually rational to take that view to believe an extraordinary claim without knowing, but some people do believe without knowlege.

Anyone who is reasonable sits on the agnostic spectrum. We are all agnostic to some degree barring those who are brainwashed fundies, who 'know' god exists, and those who 'know' that they don't. Both extremes are slightly irrational positions.
leroyjenkens said:
So by you saying that, you're saying that the only true atheists are the "strong atheists".

No I am not sayin that. I'm saying if you don't believe then you are atheist. That inclused strong and weak. However being a weak atheist also puts you in the box of not knowing. Making you agnostic.

It's not an either/or thing.
 
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  • #58
My last statement in regards to the difference between an atheist, agnostic, an theist is that if you have three definitions with which to categorize people, then it is fairly clear cut the differences between the three, as we have clearly layed out here. If you (leroy) reduce this to a decision between only two categories (theist and atheist), as you have done, then you are correct. When you are not a theist you are an atheist.

The guy wants to wait to decide one way or another until he can make a better judgement is an agnostic.
 
  • #59
Pattonias said:
My last statement in regards to the difference between an atheist, agnostic, an theist is that if you have three definitions with which to categorize people, then it is fairly clear cut the differences between the three, as we have clearly layed out here. If you (leroy) reduce this to a decision between only two categories (theist and atheist), as you have done, then you are correct. When you are not a theist you are an atheist.

The guy wants to wait to decide one way or another until he can make a better judgement is an agnostic.

Is it reasonable to reduce it down to a dichotomy though? If you begin to reduce down your options then you start to put people into a bracket that doesn't accurately reflect their views.

But yes I agree that if you boil it down to those two options, then Leroy is indeed correct, what he is saying a tautological. And no one is aguing that. This is reality though, there aren't only two options, we have more and they are well defined. Three by dictionary definition, and a spectrum becuase those three options are not mutually exclusive.
 
  • #60
arunma said:
Hi gkc. Speaking from the position of someone who does believe in God (which makes me a minority among physicists)...

There are two issues here. The first is the consideration of God's role in the universe when we do science. A lot of people believe that God should be given credit for all physical processes (that isn't exactly what you said in your post, but I'm guessing you adhere to this philosophy). The problem with saying "God is responsible" is that from a scientific point of view, it's an absolutely useless statement. If you believe in a God who is actually worthy of that title, then you believe he is responsible for everything that happens. So why bother mentioning this at all? It would be impractical to glorify God for every single physical process that has to be considered in any scientific experiment. Besides that, science is concerned with "how" question, not "why" questions. Saying "God did it" adds absolutely nothing to an explanation of how diffusive shock acceleration creates high energy cosmic rays or how stars collapse into degenerate matter. For any religious scientist who is good at his job, giving God credit for physical processes would not be beneficial in any way, because you'd have to take the time to give God credit for every single thing that happens. Even according to most theologians this would be a waste of time rather than God-honoring. If you are a scientist who believes in God, it's better to take time, outside of your research, to give credit to God in whatever way you feel is best. But as far as scientific inquiry goes, there's no point in inserting the word "God" into your scientific papers. That's just meaningless.

The second issue is using religious doctrine to formulate scientific theses. You mention evolution and the formation of our universe from others. The latter is highly speculative (almost to the point of being a religion rather than science), so I won't go into it. But as for evolution, biologists have physical evidence backing up their theories. This isn't just a matter of evil atheist conspirators sitting in back rooms trying to figure out how to drag more people to hell with them. Lots of religious people believe in evolution. Even if you don't, it's contrary to the doctrines of most religions to make up lies in order to defend one's beliefs. Don't take this as any sort of personal offense, but basically all creation "scientists" are liars. I have never met one creationist who used legitimate scientific facts to make even a mildly convincing argument against evolution. If you try to negate physically observable facts, you're bound to lose.

As a theist I'm probably a bit more sympathetic to the creationism people than most (even if I don't agree with them). If you've got a legitimate argument against evolution, I'm willing to hear you out. All I ask is that you not go to the Answers in Genesis page and quote from their laughable arguments, or use some other already-refuted argument against evolution. I'm speaking somewhat rhetorically here; in evolution's 100+ year history, no one has come up with a valid argument against it. But hey, there's a first time for everything.
Excellent post Arunma, I need to keep this as a reference for whenever this discussion comes up.
 
  • #61
leroyjenkens said:
Yes, but how can you believe something you don't know to be true?
So you're also making up your own definition of the word "believe" as well. The actual definition is: "to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so."

Paraphrased, it means 'accepting something to be true without knowing it to be true'. In other words, a belief, by definition is something that you accept but "don't know to be true". Or the corollary: you can't believe something you know to be true.
 
  • #62
This is based on the assumption that you can't believe something you don't know to be true.
Why is what you quoted based on that?
This is reality though, there aren't only two options, we have more and they are well defined. Three by dictionary definition, and a spectrum becuase those three options are not mutually exclusive.
They're not the only two options, but however many options you add, they boil down to just two.
So you're also making up your own definition of the word "believe" as well. The actual definition is: "to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so."

Paraphrased, it means 'accepting something to be true without knowing it to be true'. In other words, a belief, by definition is something that you accept but "don't know to be true". Or the corollary: you can't believe something you know to be true.
I didn't know the word "believe" had only one definition.
 
  • #63
gkc2294 said:
Every time I read a physics or modern science magazine, it always talks about evolution, our universe forming from others, and other secular stuff. Why can't God be considered as a possibility(?)
As some have suggested, it is not scientific to ask why not god. However of course some do consider god. It's probably not discussed as a possiblity because some seem to think that this possibility has anything to do with a, some, or all religion that they have a distaste for...

Glennage said:
Because I don't believe in a talking snake, a man who lived in a "Fish", a man who fed thousands with a few pieces of bread and fish, a man who parted the sea with his hands, and we have something like 97% DNA to Apes... Kind of figures the theory of evolution to be much more true than believing in a made up religion such as Christianity. I believe the story of Jesus was made up, to establish what is now the LARGEST religion in the world, Christianity. I simply put my FAITH in Science & Fact, not Fiction.

Read: Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion
Watch: Religilous

I don't care, nor mind what anyone believes in, but for me, it's a dilusion to the real world, a sense of comfort for the masses. Or simply, most young people as children are often brainwashed by TV, Parents etc to believe in things like this, instead of having the chance to make up there own mind.

When I have children, they will NOT be baptised & I will NOT be getting married in a church, nor do I want a "Church" Funeral, or any talk of God at my death / marriage.

Life is Material, Not Supernatural.
I too have a distaste for religion and, for that matter, any idea that intends to set some people apart from others (see pride in sex, race, nation, culture...).
 
  • #64
xxChrisxx said:
gnostic theist - you've condiered what you know and come to the colcusion that god must have done it. (I'd argue that it's always flawed reasoning, but still flawed or not those people believe for a reason).
Gnostic theists were also a group in the medieval church, they believed that you should individually study and come to know god (gnostic=knowing)

Since they were a bunch of quiet peaceful holy types they were all tortured and exterminated by the agnostic theists in the inquisition.
 
  • #65
@leroy, Belief isn't a proposition of somethings truth value. KNOWLEDGE on the otherhand IS.

If you know something then it is necessarily a true belief. If you head over to the philosophy forums we had a discussion on this last month I believe.
 
  • #66
gkc2294 said:
Every time I read a physics or modern science magazine, it always talks about evolution, our universe forming from others, and other secular stuff. Why can't God be considered as a possibility. I mean its not as if all modern scientists don't believe in God. Some of the greatest scientists are openly monotheistic (Stephen Hawking, Robert Penrose, ALBERT EINSTEIN, Michio Kaku.)

God is not a priori excluded at all. In fact, 200 years ago, the existence of God was not questioned. Most books on scientific topics would mention God, even if God was not invoked in any essential way. A notable exception is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Simon_Laplace#Napoleon

Laplace went in state to Napoleon to accept a copy of his work, and the following account of the interview is well authenticated, and so characteristic of all the parties concerned that I quote it in full. Someone had told Napoleon that the book contained no mention of the name of God; Napoleon, who was fond of putting embarrassing questions, received it with the remark, 'M. Laplace, they tell me you have written this large book on the system of the universe, and have never even mentioned its Creator.' Laplace, who, though the most supple of politicians, was as stiff as a martyr on every point of his philosophy, drew himself up and answered bluntly, 'Je n'avais pas besoin de cette hypothèse-là.' ("I had no need of that hypothesis.") Napoleon, greatly amused, told this reply to Lagrange, who exclaimed, 'Ah! c'est une belle hypothèse; ça explique beaucoup de choses.' ("Ah, it is a fine hypothesis; it explains many things.")

Clearly, where we are now in science arose from carefully applying the scientific method in which the God hypothesis was the default hypthesis that was assumed to be true in the absense of any scientfic data.

If you assume some science fiction like scenario in which a higher intelligence had interfered with evolution to create humans and had left a message in the DNA, then that message can be picked up by the normal way of scientific investigations. So, evidence for a "God" is not a priori filtered out by the way we currently do science.
 
  • #67
I find myself in a unique position, one I've never heard anyone else express.

I am an unwilling atheist. I want there to be a God, but I know there is not.

It would be awesome to be able to attribute a higher meaning to my life and to the lives of others. It would be profound to know that my actions meant something when no one was watching. It would be great if some form of my essence survived my death.

Alas, much as it would be give me the warm & fuzzies, it is not to be. And this kind of saddens me.

(Before all you atheists get started, I know we find solace in forms of the above - our lives are as meaningful as we wish them to be; our actions give us character, even when no one is watching; we live on through our accomplishments and through memories of loves ones. I know all this, and this is how I philosophize it too.)

Every once on a while, I toy with the idea that, just by flipping a switch in my head (an "I Believe" switch), I could be very happy. Happy like the pod people in Bodysnatchers... "Join us, and all your pain and fear will vanish. You'll see."
 
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  • #68
DaveC426913 said:
I find myself in a unique position, one I've never heard anyone else express.

I am an unwilling atheist. I want there to be a God, but I know there is not.

It would be awesome to be able to attribute a higher meaning to my life and to the lives of others. It would be profound to know that my actions meant something when no one was watching. It would be great if some form of my essence survived my death.

Alas, much as it would be give me the warm & fuzzies, it is not to be. And this kind of saddens me.

(Before all you atheists get started, I know we find solace in forms of the above - our lives are as meaningful as we wish them to be; our actions give us character, even when no one is watching; we live on through our accomplishments and through memories of loves ones. I know all this, and this is how I philosophize it too.)

Every once on a while, I toy with the idea that, just by flipping a switch in my head (an "I Believe" switch), I could be very happy. Happy like the pod people in Bodysnatchers... "Join us, and all your pain and fear will vanish. You'll see."

AKA You're an atheist. Why don't you grab my avatar and rock it?!
 
  • #69
DaveC426913 said:
I find myself in a unique position, one I've never heard anyone else express.

I am an unwilling atheist. I want there to be a God, but I know there is not.

It would be awesome to be able to attribute a higher meaning to my life and to the lives of others. It would be profound to know that my actions meant something when no one was watching. It would be great if some form of my essence survived my death.

Alas, much as it would be give me the warm & fuzzies, it is not to be. And this kind of saddens me.

(Before all you atheists get started, I know we find solace in forms of the above - our lives are as meaningful as we wish them to be; our actions give us character, even when no one is watching; we live on through our accomplishments and through memories of loves ones. I know all this, and this is how I philosophize it too.)

Every once on a while, I toy with the idea that, just by flipping a switch in my head (an "I Believe" switch), I could be very happy. Happy like the pod people in Bodysnatchers... "Join us, and all your pain and fear will vanish. You'll see."

NO! I agree. So wholeheartedly that it's almost eerie.
I like to think of myself as a true agnostic. (reading the beginning replies and hearing the whole "agnostics are athiests" speech) I try, and always have, to believe and trust in a god. To look and trust in him. I was raised that way, and I was disturbed that all my child friends could easily find/believe in him, yet I never could. His "commands", I realized, were my own thoughts. And I let "him" speak to me.

So now, I try really hard to still believe, but I can't. But I don't say there ISN'T a god, because I really would like there to be one. :frown:

zomgwtf said:
AKA You're an atheist. Why don't you grab my avatar and rock it?!

You'll be twinners!
 
  • #70
zomgwtf said:
AKA You're an atheist.

I am. Did I not say that?

Most atheists I know are comfortable with their stance. They have chosen it.

I'm an atheist who ... well ... I guess wishes the world were otherwise.


zomgwtf said:
Why don't you grab my avatar and rock it?!
Hey. I don't roll that way.
 
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  • #71
Every single evidence coming from cosmology, astrophysics to evolutionary biology points overwhelmingly to the fact that all the stars, elements, compounds, and life were created in a bottom-up way, where more complex building blocks arose from simpler building blocks coming together.

If God defined as a "Supreme Being that created the universe" in most dictionaries - one would expect any evidence of a supreme being to point to a top-down approach. But none is found.

Everything in the universe has built itself up from simpler building blocks.

Hence science has already answered that God doesn't exist.
 
  • #72
waht said:
one would expect any evidence of a supreme being to point to a top-down approach.
This is the non sequitur in your logic.

1] There's no reason why that would be so. Many suggest God set up the universe as if a clock, wound it up and then just let it go.
2] It is wise never to presume to understand the rationale of alien life forms. I'd say this goes double for creators of universes.
 
  • #73
This debate has been interesting. I have had the opportunity to view the atheistic side of life (until mid-twenties) as well as the theistic side, now. While there is no "proof" there is a God there is Faith. Defined, firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust . Let's assume God comes this evening, shows himself/herself to all and say's "obey my commandments and repent or else you will suffer eternal damnation." What then? God of course would not do that due to the concept of freewill. Just like if we could magically make someone fall in love with us, deep down inside you know it would not be true. There is a key to enter the kingdom of God and it is called faith. Unless you have faith in God you cannot understand the way that it can transform your life. The bible has multiple verses about multitudes that will not have faith, "the path is wide and the gate is narrow for those who will enter the kingdom of heaven" for example. I can attest that there is a God and God has transformed my life. My point is unless you have faith firm belief in something for which there is no proof that there is a God you will not understand.

My 2 cents!
 
  • #74
DaveC426913 said:
I am. Did I not say that?

Most atheists I know are comfortable with their stance. They have chosen it.

I'm an atheist who ... well ... I guess wishes the world were otherwise.
Well I'm just pointing out that there's no difference between the position you take (wishing God existed) and just saying that such and such is bunk. I mean sure sometimes I wish God (read Western Modern concept of god) existed and I even call out to him sometimes.

Like when Team Canada played against Russia and USA in the olympics? I was yelling 'to god' so loudly that you'd think the charismatic movement was taking place right inside my living room. Or during this years playoffs, I want a Canadian team to take the cup GO MONTREAL! :-p (You get the point)


Hey. I don't roll that way.

This actually made me laugh out loud...



Actually I'm still kinda giggling from it. Yes, I said giggling. What of it?
 
  • #75
leroyjenkens said:
I didn't know the word "believe" had only one definition.
It has one applicable definition. And no, a definition you've made up yourself doesn't qualify. Please stop playing games here. When you have a difference of opinion about a definition, a one-liner has no value other than to provoke. Provide the definition you are using, with a justification for why it is applicable and where it comes from.
 
  • #76
DaveC426913 said:
This is the non sequitur in your logic.

1] There's no reason why that would be so. Many suggest God set up the universe as if a clock, wound it up and then just let it go.
2] It is wise never to presume to understand the rationale of alien life forms. I'd say this goes double for creators of universes.

I believe he is specifically attempting to counter 'Intelligent Design' claims in which case he is correct.

(for the most part)
One little part though is that God could simply have set up everything in order to make it appear to have been built that way. We then claim he's a deceiver. But maybe his intentions weren't to deceive! Maybe the way everything built itself is supposed to lead us directly to superior knowledge of him!

Who knows.
 
  • #77
Why not God is an interesting question, but it's kind of been done to death, don't you think?

I propose some more interesting questions:

Why nand God?
Why xor God?
 
  • #78
zomgwtf said:
Who knows.

God does.

Faith is the only way to go with God. Either you have it, or you don't. I can't. Some people can.
I just hope I don't go to hell, if there is a God. Maybe, since I tried, I'll get like, a get-outta-jail-free pass into heaven. I won't get all the rewards as some other people, but at least I'm there. :-p
 
  • #79
DaveC426913 said:
Why not God is an interesting question, but it's kind of been done to death, don't you think?

I propose some more interesting questions:

Why nand God?
Why xor God?

Brilliant. Let's see how long it takes before those are closed.
:-p
 
  • #80
I'm surprised the thread has been allowed to continue so long.

I tend to agree with what your saying though GreatEscapist. However if God turns out to merely judge based on your belief in him then I don't think I really would mind spending eternity with Lucifer or what have you. :-p

Here's one of my favorite quotes, from one of my favorite people:
‘Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.’

-Marcus Aurelius
 
  • #81
DaveC426913 said:
This is the non sequitur in your logic.

The top-down approach implies a complete design like from blue prints, every building block, and sub-building block carefully crafted so that all the pieces work together as designed. It's like designing a skyscraper.

And science killed this was the case. The only remaining building scheme is a bottom-up approach.

The bottom-up approach is basically starting with a seed, or completely independent systems that randomly interact, and branch out in irregular ways. Whatever comes out of it will be an emergent process that will interact with other emergent processes, and so on.

The question is, can a supreme being utilize a bottom up approach to create the universe?

Suppose so. Then by the definition, everything that happened, the Holocaust, earthquakes, rapists, oppression of people, sinking of the Titanic, the Shoemaker comet flying into Jupiter is an emergent process as designed. The sheer pointlessness of other emergent processes is just astounding - just to get us here for 75 years?

So it seems this case would be more of an non sequitur?

That is from the action of all powerful Supreme Being, it follows there is lots of pointlessness.

And so I think it's unlikely that a Supreme Being created the universe. It's so unlikely that I'm not going to kid myself. He simply doesn't exists IMO, until such time as there is evidence.
 
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  • #82
waht said:
And so I think it's unlikely that a Supreme Being created the universe. It's so unlikely that I'm not going to kid myself. He simply doesn't exit IMO, until such time as there is evidence.

Why don't YOU rock my avatar too!

http://outcampaign.org/
 
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  • #83
zomgwtf said:
Why don't YOU rock my avatar too!

http://outcampaign.org/

It looks nice. But is there any point in wearing it in physicsforums? Almost everyone here is atheist/agnostic?

This would go well on a bumper sticker though.
 
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  • #84
zomgwtf said:
Why don't YOU rock my avatar too!

http://outcampaign.org/

OK, your new avatar makes a bit more sense now...
 
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  • #85
waht said:
Every single evidence coming from cosmology, astrophysics to evolutionary biology points overwhelmingly to the fact that all the stars, elements, compounds, and life were created in a bottom-up way, where more complex building blocks arose from simpler building blocks coming together.

Science also has room for top-down causality - global constraints. And also for theories of meaning - semiotics being an example.

If you study systems science, hierarchy theory, ecology, neuroscience and other stories of self-organisation, you can see that bottom-up causality - local atomistic/mechanical construction - is only half the total story.

Science has become publicly identified with bottom-up causality of course. Indeed, it is what most computer scientists and physicists also believe :wink:. Which has left an unfortunate marketing gap for theists to claim ownership of top-down causality.

Though as is remarked, theists can also claim the whole bottom-up science story is set in train by a wind it up/let it go style god.

It is interesting to ask what you will end up believing as the meaning of life if instead you are an atheistic systems scientist.

It used to be that a lot of holists and systems scientists did believe that some spiritual-like comfort and meaning would lie in this "whole of things" approach. It attracted a lot of catholic scientists and new agers as a result.

Then growing out of this has been a more techno-triumphalist theory of meaningful existence. Kurzweil's singularity, Tippler's Omega point and de Chardin's noosphere. The idea here is that complexity is the magic word. The natural goal of the universe is to become as full of life and mind as possible. Humans define what is good (as we are the most sophisticated level of intelligence) and if we can improve on ourselves, spread our influence everywhere, then this would be achieving a natural purpose.

Man becomes god, in effect - an omnipotent and omniscient presence in the universe. And this is also linked to a reversion to a more bottom-up view of complexity - the Santa Fe brand where top-down causality is again "just emergent" and so not terribly "real". The techno-triumphalist view is based on exponential progress that recognises no necessary upper limits, no global system constraints.

All very science fiction. In fact why not call it a scientific religion? Most scientists are really working as technologists and this is a creedo that endorses their actions. They are busy building that better world and to the extent this is natural, a purpose embedded in reality, it gives individual lives meaning to be an active participant in the process.

This is what gives their rhetoric a righteous tone (one to match other camps of religion). The purpose of science is to transform energy and resources into creating a vaster, more all-knowing, all-controlling, version of the human mind.

So you have at least three choices when it comes to finding the meaning of life. And scientist or theist, you can slot into any of these three I would say, even if some choices are more favoured.

1) bottom-up causality - claims simple and meaningless beginnings. Meaning is something that you then have to construct. But there are no limits, so what is natural is to head for infinite construction. The singularity for instance.

2) top-down causality - claims that something global, larger than ourselves, is in charge and enshrines purpose, meaning, goals. Which to a theist sounds like god. To attain a meaningful life, we have to rise up somehow to share that level of existence. There are also global limits as we should be entrained to that global purpose. We are not free to construct our own human meanings. And one 'obvious' way to move up to a higher level of meaning is to de-construct our material existence - to be poorer, humbler, less individually assertive and active, etc. By giving up our bottom-up approach, we become more purely aligned with the greater reality of the top-down, more purely aligned with where the meaning of reality exists.

3) a true systems view stresses that reality is self-organising and is the result of an equilbrium balance between bottom-up and top-down causality. So neither is privileged and meaning exists in the balance. A meaningful life is one that balances personal action against wider (typically social and ecological) constraints. Both individual competition and general co-operation are valued evenly, in systematic fashion.

What kind of "religion" might arise out of (3)?

Here there is a problem as there are two kinds of equilibrium systems - the open and the closed, the dynamic and the static. Do you "worship" the second law, the dissipation of entropy gradients, and so look forward to the heat death of the universe (and hence want to do all you can to accelerate this fate?). Or do you instead argue that the stable persistence of a regime is the key, and so a meaningful life is one that helps the human social system from crashing off the road, staying within its given ecological constraints?

Anyway, my points here are first, that it is too simple to identify science with bottom-up causality and religion with top-down (though there is some truth to that).

And second that science also seems strikingly like religion once people start talking about their futuristic (to be constructed!) idea of "heaven" - as in a singularity scenario, or a global consumer paradise, and other techno-utopias.

And third, if you progress to a systems perspective of the possible meaning of life, the answers could be surprising (worshipping the second law and the heat death?). But also still not easy to settle. A fundamental polarity still exists between maximising complexity and maximising simplicity - between keeping the human game going as long as humanly possible and crashing and burning in the name of accelerating the universe's heat death.
 
  • #86
Can you clarify this atheistic top-down causality?
 
  • #87
Evo said:
Excellent post Arunma, I need to keep this as a reference for whenever this discussion comes up.

Thanks, I'm glad to help!

GreatEscapist said:
Brilliant. Let's see how long it takes before those are closed.
:-p

Well actually, I think there's some value in this thread. Most religion threads center around someone making a patently foolish argument against evolution or the Big Bang, based on cut 'n pastes from a creationist website. While the original poster here doesn't believe in evolution, at least he asked a more original question: why do scientists not mention God in our work? It's a fair question, since mention of God was pretty standard practice until at least the time of Laplace (Napoleon was surprised that he didn't do this). It's worth explaining to a nonscientist why we don't mention God in our papers, and why this has no bearing on the existence or nonexistence of God. To not respond to things like this would only add fuel to the fire started by people who make claims of scientists' secular conspiracies. It's important to explain why science has nothing to do with the question of theism. This helps us to keep that debate in the philosophical realm where it belongs, and prevents peoples' pet religious doctrines from being taught as science.
 
  • #88
Brilliant post Apeiron. I'm printing it to study in more detail tomorrow.

apeiron said:
Science also has room for top-down causality - global constraints. And also for theories of meaning - semiotics being an example.

Does this imply that a top-down causality can be a local emergent process of a global bottom-up causality? If so I agree, If not how does science have room for top-down causality otherwise?
 
  • #89
waht said:
Does this imply that a top-down causality can be a local emergent process of a global bottom-up causality? If so I agree, If not how does science have room for top-down causality otherwise?

The big picture would be that global constraints are emergent as a result of bottom-up actions (which is the "normal" story). But then what is different is to also say that the local actions are in turn also the result of emergence - shaped up by the very top-down constraints they are constructing.

This is a boot-strapping view of things. And it does argue that ALL top-down causality is emergent (so doing away with transcendant causes like gods or platonic realms of form).

But then more controversially, it wants to argue that ALL bottom-up action is also emergent (and so does not exist prior to the system itself - so there were not first a bunch of atoms in a void, and then they started to self-assemble into structures via the emergence of constraints.)

It is hard to find simple analogies for this complex view of causality. But you could think of the way the banks of a river (as global constraints) creates local whorls of turbulence (as local actions). Then these whorls over time also reshape the banks, leading to changes in the whorls thus being create. Each scale of the system is feeding back on the other, and the whole system is driven by the equilbrium that emerges.
 
  • #90
zomgwtf said:
I'm surprised the thread has been allowed to continue so long.
Ivan is busy and we usually let him handle threads here. I'm sure he will have a fit when he sees this thread. This would usually be exiled to the *philosophy* round file forum.
 
  • #91
DaveC426913 said:
Can you clarify this atheistic top-down causality?

Do you mean option 2 or 3 - top-down causality acting alone, or the system view of two kinds of causality in equilibrium interaction?

And what in particular is unclear?

As I replied to waht, a key to it being an "atheistic" worldview would be the presumption that all meaning, all global constraint, comes from within the system. Nothing has to be supplied from without by a mysterious external source.

The top-down causality is non-mysterious because we would be able to account for it as emergent bottom-up. This puts it squarely in the realm of scientific modelling. It arises where we can see it.

Likewise, we can then follow the story back the other way to see how what exists locally in the universe has to be so because of emergence. We don't have a puzzle over who made the first atom, or caused the first QM fluctuation. Local features this concrete must be made by global processes that are visible to us as well.

Of course, there is still a degree of mystery about the origins of things, but it is at least a lesser degree of mystery than we had before. Much more appears to be within the proper scope of science and atheism - we can track its story, it is not a mystery in which we must find answers based on faith.
 
  • #92
I have really enjoyed reading everyone's thought and feelings on these matters in this thread. I am sure it won't last much longer so I just wanted to say that this is probably one of the best discussion on this subject I have read in a long time.

A truly mature discussion on a easily volatile topic.
 
  • #93
Evo is right; normally threads like this get tossed into the round file. But I did poke my head in quickly today and thought this was a very productive discussion. Great job, everyone!
 
  • #94
leroyjenkens said:
Why is what you quoted based on that?

They're not the only two options, but however many options you add, they boil down to just two.

I didn't know the word "believe" had only one definition.

Is there a reason you never EVER address the meat of a post? You know in your mind that I am right, so totally ignore the relevant parts of a post.

I thought this was going so well, we were having a decent discussion, and now that you've come up against a well thought out premise you simply make a one line comment that has nothing to do with the discussion to provoke someone into saying something that you can pick apart.

You don't tackle the comment rationally even when you do respond. Just like above you say "NO NO NO!" and make a flat disagreement with not even an remote attempt to respond to the content.

Your argument is also very poor.

You are aguing (basically) that if you aren't a theist you are an atheist. That's fair enough, as the two are mutually exclusive. NOONE can argue agsinst that beucase it's the very definition of the words.

However in the real world, you cannot put people into those two piles, as it doesn't accurately reflect their viewpoint. Also the meanings of agnosic and athist are different as belief and knowledge are different.

This is why your original statement of "agnostics should say athist as they are the same thing" is totally and utterly wrong.

End of the game really. You only seem to be able to come up with pathetically feeble responses designed to provoke so until you make an affort to be sensible about this, I see no reason to continue.
 
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  • #95
...almost everyone. :biggrin:
 
  • #96
Ivan Seeking said:
...almost everyone. :biggrin:

Ivan it's bollocks, if you look at the way he reacts when confronted with a sound propsition he then makes a pedantic argument or a non relevant single line answer ignoring the point completely. This is why I never know if he's being serious and acutally believes what he's saying or is a troll.
 
  • #97
waht said:
The top-down approach implies a complete design like from blue prints, every building block, and sub-building block carefully crafted so that all the pieces work together as designed. It's like designing a skyscraper.

And science killed this was the case. The only remaining building scheme is a bottom-up approach.

You are assuming he plays by the rules (if he did exist). If we are to believe the fact he's all powerful he can do whatever he wants and can make things appear any way he wants.

waht said:
That is from the action of all powerful Supreme Being, it follows there is lots of pointlessness.

Ever consider the fact that god is just a man with a very black sense of humour who's just having a laugh. The universe and all the crap in it is just his cosmological joke sitting on his mantelpiece.

I acutally quite like the idea that a god made the universe in a drunken stupor after a night out, and that's why it makes no sense.
 
  • #98
I think the question in the op has been answered.
 
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