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Gravitomagnetic effect 10^20 large then predicted by GR ?

  1. Oct 11, 2006 #1
    http://www.physorg.com/news12054.html
    "It demonstrates that a superconductive gyroscope is capable of
    generating a powerful gravitomagnetic field, and is therefore the
    gravitational counterpart of the magnetic coil. Depending on further
    confirmation, this effect could form the basis for a new technological
    domain, which would have numerous applications in space and other
    high-tech sectors" says de Matos. Although just 100 millionths of the
    acceleration due to the Earth's gravitational field, the measured field
    is a surprising one hundred million trillion times larger than
    Einstein's General Relativity predicts. "

    "The electromagnetic properties of superconductors are explained in
    quantum theory by assuming that force-carrying particles, known as
    photons, gain mass. By allowing force-carrying gravitational particles,
    known as the gravitons, to become heavier, they found that the
    unexpectedly large gravitomagnetic force could be modelled. "

    Any comments ?
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Oct 11, 2006 #2
    serg271 wrote:
    >
    > http://www.physorg.com/news12054.html
    > "It demonstrates that a superconductive gyroscope is capable of
    > generating a powerful gravitomagnetic field, and is therefore the
    > gravitational counterpart of the magnetic coil. Depending on further
    > confirmation, this effect could form the basis for a new technological
    > domain, which would have numerous applications in space and other
    > high-tech sectors" says de Matos. Although just 100 millionths of the
    > acceleration due to the Earth's gravitational field, the measured field
    > is a surprising one hundred million trillion times larger than
    > Einstein's General Relativity predicts. "
    >
    > "The electromagnetic properties of superconductors are explained in
    > quantum theory by assuming that force-carrying particles, known as
    > photons, gain mass. By allowing force-carrying gravitational particles,
    > known as the gravitons, to become heavier, they found that the
    > unexpectedly large gravitomagnetic force could be modelled. "
    >
    > Any comments ?


    1) Podkletnov.

    2) Gravity Probe B was two pairs of anti-parallel superconductive
    4300 rpm gyroscopes free falling in a 0.7742 rpm housing. No major
    anomaly vs. housing or reference star was detected over 352 days of
    free fall. It was DESIGNED to look for gravitomagnetic effects with
    extraordinary sensitivity and minimal background fuzz. "one hundred
    million trillion times larger than Einstein's General Relativity
    predicts" would have been noticed by the grad students.

    http://einstein.stanford.edu/

    3) Binary pulsars orbit to General Relativity specs within
    observational error. Pairs of 1.4 solar mass superconductng gyroscopes
    with equatorial surface velocities of 20% lightspeed bearing huge
    magnetic fields (10^8 tesla) and observed over months give no
    anomalies,

    http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2006-2/
    http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2005-7/

    "one hundred million trillion times larger than Einstein's General
    Relativity predicts" would have emerged from collected and analyzed
    data.

    4) Gravitons are a mathematical fabrication. There is no empirical
    evidence that gravitons inhabit physical reality.

    5) If the boojum was a nice clean precision-manufactured niobium
    stannide supercon, then the report has possible credence. If the
    supercon was YBCO, the report is probably crap at face value. High
    temp ceramic supercons are notorious for spurious effects.

    Anybody gainsaying General Relativity had best demonstrate an
    unambiguous reproducible falsification. If an unallied group builds
    its own a apparatus and observes the anomaly with a different (BCS)
    supercon, that is convincing.

    --
    Uncle Al
    http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
    (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
    http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz3.pdf
     
  4. Oct 11, 2006 #3
    "Uncle Al" <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
    news:44249831.4A46385E@hate.spam.net...
    > serg271 wrote:
    >>
    >> http://www.physorg.com/news12054.html
    >> "It demonstrates that a superconductive gyroscope is capable of
    >> generating a powerful gravitomagnetic field, and is therefore the
    >> gravitational counterpart of the magnetic coil. Depending on further
    >> confirmation, this effect could form the basis for a new technological
    >> domain, which would have numerous applications in space and other
    >> high-tech sectors" says de Matos. Although just 100 millionths of the
    >> acceleration due to the Earth's gravitational field, the measured field
    >> is a surprising one hundred million trillion times larger than
    >> Einstein's General Relativity predicts. "
    >>
    >> "The electromagnetic properties of superconductors are explained in
    >> quantum theory by assuming that force-carrying particles, known as
    >> photons, gain mass. By allowing force-carrying gravitational particles,
    >> known as the gravitons, to become heavier, they found that the
    >> unexpectedly large gravitomagnetic force could be modelled. "
    >>
    >> Any comments ?

    [...]
    > 5) If the boojum was a nice clean precision-manufactured niobium
    > stannide supercon, then the report has possible credence. If the
    > supercon was YBCO, the report is probably crap at face value. High
    > temp ceramic supercons are notorious for spurious effects.
    >
    > Anybody gainsaying General Relativity had best demonstrate an
    > unambiguous reproducible falsification. If an unallied group builds
    > its own a apparatus and observes the anomaly with a different (BCS)
    > supercon, that is convincing.


    It's always possiblethat there's something special about the specific
    material used that isn't due to "spurious effects" per se, but to some
    unexpected property of that material under those circumstances.
     
  5. Oct 11, 2006 #4
    Uncle Al wrote:

    >
    > 1) Podkletnov.
    >
    > 2) Gravity Probe B was two pairs of anti-parallel superconductive
    > 4300 rpm gyroscopes free falling in a 0.7742 rpm housing. No major
    > anomaly vs. housing or reference star was detected over 352 days of
    > free fall. It was DESIGNED to look for gravitomagnetic effects with
    > extraordinary sensitivity and minimal background fuzz. "one hundred
    > million trillion times larger than Einstein's General Relativity
    > predicts" would have been noticed by the grad students.
    >
    > http://einstein.stanford.edu/
    >
    > 3) Binary pulsars orbit to General Relativity specs within
    > observational error. Pairs of 1.4 solar mass superconductng gyroscopes
    > with equatorial surface velocities of 20% lightspeed bearing huge
    > magnetic fields (10^8 tesla) and observed over months give no
    > anomalies,
    >
    > http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2006-2/
    > http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2005-7/
    >
    > "one hundred million trillion times larger than Einstein's General
    > Relativity predicts" would have emerged from collected and analyzed
    > data.
    >
    > 4) Gravitons are a mathematical fabrication. There is no empirical
    > evidence that gravitons inhabit physical reality.
    >
    > 5) If the boojum was a nice clean precision-manufactured niobium
    > stannide supercon, then the report has possible credence. If the
    > supercon was YBCO, the report is probably crap at face value. High
    > temp ceramic supercons are notorious for spurious effects.
    >
    > Anybody gainsaying General Relativity had best demonstrate an
    > unambiguous reproducible falsification. If an unallied group builds
    > its own a apparatus and observes the anomaly with a different (BCS)
    > supercon, that is convincing.
    >


    Here is a better description
    http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/gsp/Experimental_Detection.pdf
    and arxiv
    http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0602591
    They were using Niobium, lead and YBCO. The effect was observed only
    with Niobium and lead, but not with YBCO, and only in low temperature
    (liquid helium, but not with liquid nitrogen). Sgnal-to-noise is 3.3 -
    not very good by their own words. So what does it mean if the result
    confirmed but only within this limited setup ? Is some other, less
    exotic but still interesting explanation is likely ?
     
  6. Oct 11, 2006 #5
    serg271 wrote:
    > Uncle Al wrote:
    >
    >
    >> 1) Podkletnov.
    >>
    >> 2) Gravity Probe B was two pairs of anti-parallel superconductive
    >>4300 rpm gyroscopes free falling in a 0.7742 rpm housing. No major
    >>anomaly vs. housing or reference star was detected over 352 days of
    >>free fall. It was DESIGNED to look for gravitomagnetic effects with
    >>extraordinary sensitivity and minimal background fuzz. "one hundred
    >>million trillion times larger than Einstein's General Relativity
    >>predicts" would have been noticed by the grad students.
    >>
    >>http://einstein.stanford.edu/
    >>
    >> 3) Binary pulsars orbit to General Relativity specs within
    >>observational error. Pairs of 1.4 solar mass superconductng gyroscopes
    >>with equatorial surface velocities of 20% lightspeed bearing huge
    >>magnetic fields (10^8 tesla) and observed over months give no
    >>anomalies,
    >>
    >>http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2006-2/
    >>http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2005-7/
    >>
    >>"one hundred million trillion times larger than Einstein's General
    >>Relativity predicts" would have emerged from collected and analyzed
    >>data.
    >>
    >> 4) Gravitons are a mathematical fabrication. There is no empirical
    >>evidence that gravitons inhabit physical reality.
    >>
    >> 5) If the boojum was a nice clean precision-manufactured niobium
    >>stannide supercon, then the report has possible credence. If the
    >>supercon was YBCO, the report is probably crap at face value. High
    >>temp ceramic supercons are notorious for spurious effects.
    >>
    >>Anybody gainsaying General Relativity had best demonstrate an
    >>unambiguous reproducible falsification. If an unallied group builds
    >>its own a apparatus and observes the anomaly with a different (BCS)
    >>supercon, that is convincing.
    >>

    >
    >
    > Here is a better description
    > http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/gsp/Experimental_Detection.pdf
    > and arxiv
    > http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0602591
    > They were using Niobium, lead and YBCO. The effect was observed only
    > with Niobium and lead, but not with YBCO, and only in low temperature
    > (liquid helium, but not with liquid nitrogen). Sgnal-to-noise is 3.3 -
    > not very good by their own words. So what does it mean if the result
    > confirmed but only within this limited setup ? Is some other, less
    > exotic but still interesting explanation is likely ?
    >


    http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/gsp/Experimental_Detection.pdf
    Equation 5 presents the basic hypothesis.

    g is proportional (by Cooper pair density/bulk density) to dot omega (angular
    acceleration)

    Gravity Probe B does not have the experimental 'dot omega'
    so results are not comparable.

    Gravitational Radiation Theory says spinning objects must have eccentricity
    Not all Pulsars should gravitationally radiate.

    Podkletnov 1992 had a 'dot omega'.

    Due to individual idiocentric superconductor
    Material Cooper Pair density characteristic,
    Before conducting the gravitational experiment,
    Do a good material critical current analysis
    or establish specific material Cooper Pair Density by other means
    and fabricate to MAXIMIZE.

    Richard
     
  7. Oct 11, 2006 #6
    LawsonE wrote:
    > "Uncle Al" <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
    > news:44249831.4A46385E@hate.spam.net...
    > > serg271 wrote:
    > >>
    > >> http://www.physorg.com/news12054.html
    > >> "It demonstrates that a superconductive gyroscope is capable of
    > >> generating a powerful gravitomagnetic field, and is therefore the
    > >> gravitational counterpart of the magnetic coil. Depending on further
    > >> confirmation, this effect could form the basis for a new technological
    > >> domain, which would have numerous applications in space and other
    > >> high-tech sectors" says de Matos. Although just 100 millionths of the
    > >> acceleration due to the Earth's gravitational field, the measured field
    > >> is a surprising one hundred million trillion times larger than
    > >> Einstein's General Relativity predicts. "
    > >>
    > >> "The electromagnetic properties of superconductors are explained in
    > >> quantum theory by assuming that force-carrying particles, known as
    > >> photons, gain mass. By allowing force-carrying gravitational particles,
    > >> known as the gravitons, to become heavier, they found that the
    > >> unexpectedly large gravitomagnetic force could be modelled. "
    > >>
    > >> Any comments ?

    > [...]
    > > 5) If the boojum was a nice clean precision-manufactured niobium
    > > stannide supercon, then the report has possible credence. If the
    > > supercon was YBCO, the report is probably crap at face value. High
    > > temp ceramic supercons are notorious for spurious effects.
    > >
    > > Anybody gainsaying General Relativity had best demonstrate an
    > > unambiguous reproducible falsification. If an unallied group builds
    > > its own a apparatus and observes the anomaly with a different (BCS)
    > > supercon, that is convincing.

    >
    > It's always possiblethat there's something special about the specific
    > material used that isn't due to "spurious effects" per se, but to some
    > unexpected property of that material under those circumstances.


    Or Systematic Errors, the dreadful fear of all experimentalists...

    Murat Ozer
     
  8. Oct 11, 2006 #7
    serg271 wrote:
    >
    > Uncle Al wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > 1) Podkletnov.
    > >
    > > 2) Gravity Probe B was two pairs of anti-parallel superconductive
    > > 4300 rpm gyroscopes free falling in a 0.7742 rpm housing. No major
    > > anomaly vs. housing or reference star was detected over 352 days of
    > > free fall. It was DESIGNED to look for gravitomagnetic effects with
    > > extraordinary sensitivity and minimal background fuzz. "one hundred
    > > million trillion times larger than Einstein's General Relativity
    > > predicts" would have been noticed by the grad students.
    > >
    > > http://einstein.stanford.edu/
    > >
    > > 3) Binary pulsars orbit to General Relativity specs within
    > > observational error. Pairs of 1.4 solar mass superconductng gyroscopes
    > > with equatorial surface velocities of 20% lightspeed bearing huge
    > > magnetic fields (10^8 tesla) and observed over months give no
    > > anomalies,
    > >
    > > http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2006-2/
    > > http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2005-7/
    > >
    > > "one hundred million trillion times larger than Einstein's General
    > > Relativity predicts" would have emerged from collected and analyzed
    > > data.
    > >
    > > 4) Gravitons are a mathematical fabrication. There is no empirical
    > > evidence that gravitons inhabit physical reality.
    > >
    > > 5) If the boojum was a nice clean precision-manufactured niobium
    > > stannide supercon, then the report has possible credence. If the
    > > supercon was YBCO, the report is probably crap at face value. High
    > > temp ceramic supercons are notorious for spurious effects.
    > >
    > > Anybody gainsaying General Relativity had best demonstrate an
    > > unambiguous reproducible falsification. If an unallied group builds
    > > its own a apparatus and observes the anomaly with a different (BCS)
    > > supercon, that is convincing.
    > >

    >
    > Here is a better description
    > http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/gsp/Experimental_Detection.pdf
    > and arxiv
    > http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0602591
    > They were using Niobium, lead and YBCO. The effect was observed only
    > with Niobium and lead, but not with YBCO, and only in low temperature
    > (liquid helium, but not with liquid nitrogen). Sgnal-to-noise is 3.3 -
    > not very good by their own words. So what does it mean if the result
    > confirmed but only within this limited setup ? Is some other, less
    > exotic but still interesting explanation is likely ?


    Ahh... you'd think they would have put it in /gr-qc/. The S/N is weak
    compared to their grandiose conclusions. Mere superconductivity
    appears to be insufficient. If BCS type II supercons at 4K reliably
    show the effect, I want to see some others tested before anybody
    shouts "one hundred million trillion times larger than Einstein's
    General Relativity predicts."

    stuff Tc, K Hc2, KOe at 4 K
    ================================
    Pb 7.2 0.8
    Nb 9.3 2
    Nb3Sn 18 221
    Nb3(AlGe) 20 396
    Nb3Ge 23 342
    MgB2 39 146 (random polyxtal)

    MgB2 (2.73 g/cm^3) is much less dense than the others (Nb, 8.57
    g/cm^3).

    It is a curious result deserving of replication in other labs in other
    materials. My money is on Einstein.

    --
    Uncle Al
    http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
    (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
    http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz3.pdf
     
  9. Oct 11, 2006 #8
    Uncle Al wrote:

    >
    > Ahh... you'd think they would have put it in /gr-qc/. The S/N is weak
    > compared to their grandiose conclusions. Mere superconductivity
    > appears to be insufficient. If BCS type II supercons at 4K reliably>
    > show the effect, I want to see some others tested before anybody
    > shouts "one hundred million trillion times larger than Einstein's
    > General Relativity predicts."
    >
    > stuff Tc, K Hc2, KOe at 4 K
    > ================================
    > Pb 7.2 0.8
    > Nb 9.3 2
    > Nb3Sn 18 221
    > Nb3(AlGe) 20 396
    > Nb3Ge 23 342
    > MgB2 39 146 (random polyxtal)
    >
    > MgB2 (2.73 g/cm^3) is much less dense than the others (Nb, 8.57
    > g/cm^3).
    >
    > It is a curious result deserving of replication in other labs in other
    > materials.


    An added remark on the "stuff"

    Ref: Kittel Seventh Edition chapter 12

    Reasonable extrapolations/calculations of Hc where Hc is related to
    Stabilization Superconductor Free Energy Density (p 349) and where Hc ~
    sqrt(Hc1*Hc2) (p 364) would indicate a better correlation of Hc as a
    function of Tc than Hc2 as a function of Tc and perhaps a better
    baseline for correlating potential gravitomagnetic effects.

    Richard
     
  10. Oct 11, 2006 #9
    Thus spake Uncle Al <UncleAl0@hate.spam.net>
    >> >

    >
    >Ahh... you'd think they would have put it in /gr-qc/.


    gr-qc/0603033

    Abstract: It is well known that a rotating superconductor produces a
    magnetic field proportional to its angular velocity. The authors
    conjectured earlier, that in addition to this so-called London moment,
    also a large gravitomagnetic field should appear to explain an apparent
    mass increase of Niobium Cooper-pairs. This phenomenon was indeed
    observed and induced acceleration fields outside the superconductor in
    the order of about 10^-4 g were found. The field appears to be directly
    proportional to the applied angular acceleration of the superconductor
    following our theoretical motivations. If confirmed, a gravitomagnetic
    field of measurable magnitude was produced for the first time in a
    laboratory environment. These results may open up a new experimental
    window on testing general relativity and its consequences using coherent
    matter.


    >It is a curious result deserving of replication in other labs in other
    >materials.


    As they say themselves.

    >My money is on Einstein.
    >

    I would be cautious of backing Einstein on this one, since the
    understanding of super conduction takes us into the quantum domain, and
    so to quantum theories of gravity.

    On the other hand I am suspicious of the result, but understanding it
    requires more knowledge of superconduction than I claim to possess, and
    probably more knowledge of superconduction which anyone possesses, since
    it seems the phenomenon is not fully understood. I am also suspicious of
    the authors' use of the Higgs mechanism to show the mass increase in
    Niobium Cooper pairs; this seems to be their own calculation and I do
    not know if it is generally accepted.

    Since they have to apply a substantially greater acceleration than that
    found to the superconducting ring in order to observe the effect, it
    seems plausible that a field of the size found is actually due to an
    experimental error. I would be inclined withhold judgement until such
    time as there is clear evidence from other experiments, and preferably a
    solid theory to go with it.


    Regards

    --
    Charles Francis
    substitute charles for NotI to email
     
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