News Greece closes banks and imposes capital control

[Tosh5457]

Wow, suddenly this stopped seeming a scientific forum, and instead started looking like a Greek bashing forum based in nonsense. By all means critize what should be critized, but not based in wrong data like I see here.

Greeks don't like working? Greek work hours:

But the Office for National Statistics seems to be on a mission to rescue us from our own prejudices. New data published this morning shows that Greek workers actually put in longer hours than anyone else in Europe — 42.2 per week, compared to just 35.6 in Germany. If you look at full-time figures, it is even starker.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/dec/08/europe-working-hours

"Greeks retire at 58". Greek effective retirement age:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonob...ve-retirement-age-vs-official-retirement-age/
62.4 years, above many European countries.

Well excuse me for the literal take on it. If you bothered to read the wiki article Germany only recently objected to a statue commemorating Mr, Harris's accomplishments.
So in my wrong interpretation of events the Germans are still whining today.
May-be if the Germans did not receive the financial help they did after the war the Greeks and I might agree with your point.

I agree, if there is one country in Europe that can't complain about others paying off for their expenses, it's Germany, yet they're the ones who complain the most. Northern European countries got massive aid after WWII likewise. So the argument that others shouldn't pay for Greece problems, should really be that others don't want to pay for Greece problems. I'm ok with that, they'll go bankrupt in any case most likely, but just can't stand these supposedly moralist arguments.

Bottom-line, Greece's problem was a clear economic mismanagement that didn't allow them to increase their productivity, and also because of the fast deindustralization they went through, not because they're lazy people trying to live off others, like this thread could easily make one think.

 

[Buckleymanor]

The happiest people with this outcome are the German taxpayers. Finally now able to stop the travesty of leaders ignoring reality. No pouring more money into a cesspool hoping its going to make it stink less.

Why should they be happy, if the situation with Greece is not resolved with a positive outcome and Greece remains within the Eurozone, then there is every chance that the situation becomes contagious within Europe and the rest of the world and that the amount of money the German taxpayer is owed by that country is insignificant in comparison to other outstanding debts. Owed by other nations, this could result in crisis of confidence and should never have got to this stage.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15748696

 

[StatGuy2000]

To those on the forum who have paid special attention to this issue (I'm specifically thinking of Czcibor, phinds, Tosh5457, and especially tom aaron), here is an article written for Prospect magazine by neo-Keynesian economist James Galbraith on the situation with Greece.

http://prospect.org/article/greece-only-no-can-save-euro

 

[Czcibor]

Wow, suddenly this stopped seeming a scientific forum, and instead started looking like a Greek bashing forum based in nonsense. By all means critize what should be critized, but not based in wrong data like I see here.

Thanks for data, retirement age was new for me.

I think that mood is related to:
-having problems at their own request;
-not doing much reforms, even under EU threats;
-drowning there quite a lot of money by other member states (we in Poland are lucky that adopting euro was delayed);
-showing at the end quite nice rant with nationalistic undertones;
-showing still impaired ability to asses reality.

How was it called? Hubris? ;)

I agree, if there is one country in Europe that can't complain about others paying off for their expenses, it's Germany, yet they're the ones who complain the most.

I'd say Finns and Balts.

Northern European countries got massive aid after WWII likewise.

Some of them, while other were paying contributions or were ordered by their Soviet occupants to not accept Marshal aid.

So the argument that others shouldn't pay for Greece problems, should really be that others don't want to pay for Greece problems. I'm ok with that, they'll go bankrupt in any case most likely, but just can't stand these supposedly moralist arguments.

Which problems? Acute ones or long term ones? I mean Greece was being heavily subsidized from 1981. Just it did not work. (for example in case of Ireland smaller funds and open market did miracles) It simply looks like nothing can be done. And my guess is that EU actually tried to keep Greece in Eurozone at high cost, just not to make their prior political decisions highly embarrassing for themselves.

 

[russ_watters]

Wow, suddenly this stopped seeming a scientific forum, and instead started looking like a Greek bashing forum based in nonsense. By all means critize what should be critized, but not based in wrong data like I see here.
...
Bottom-line, Greece's problem was a clear economic mismanagement that didn't allow them to increase their productivity, and also because of the fast deindustralization they went through, not because they're lazy people trying to live off others, like this thread could easily make one think.

I think you are drawing conclusions about what people think that do not match or follow from what they have said. Being lazy (or not) and wanting others to bail you out of your mistaks are not necessarily related issues.

 

[Czcibor]

To those on the forum who have paid special attention to this issue (I'm specifically thinking of Czcibor, phinds, Tosh5457, and especially tom aaron), here is an article written for Prospect magazine by neo-Keynsian economist James Galbraith on the situation with Greece.

http://prospect.org/article/greece-only-no-can-save-euro

Honestly? I've read the article and consider it as full of emotionally loaded language and seriously biased.

I think that this guy should just lend some of his own money to this [unique] "political leader".

 

[phinds]

To those on the forum who have paid special attention to this issue (I'm specifically thinking of Czcibor, phinds, Tosh5457, and especially tom aaron), here is an article written for Prospect magazine by neo-Keynsian economist James Galbraith on the situation with Greece.

http://prospect.org/article/greece-only-no-can-save-euro

Actually, not particularly helpful, just a lot of overly emotional statements.

I've been following international affairs and finances for decades and I can absolutely guarantee you that if you put 4 economists in a room, you will get 5 different, and strongly held, views on how most any particular issue should be dealt with. Often these conflicting views are all, or mostly all, seemingly well reasoned but at the end of the day just boil down to a restatement of the particular school of economic thought that each particular economist subscribes to and are not necessarily helpful to a particular situation.

 

[Czcibor]

Actually, not particularly helpful, just a lot of overly emotional statements.

I've been following international affairs and finances for decades and I can absolutely guarantee you that if you put 4 economists in a room, you will get 5 different, and strongly held, views on how most any particular issue should be dealt with. Often these conflicting views are all, or mostly all, seemingly well reasoned but at the end of the day just boil down to a restatement of the particular school of economic thought that each particular economist subscribes to and are not necessarily helpful to a particular situation.

Honestly I thought more Keynesian thought was mostly absorbed into neoclassical synthesis, and within the mainstreams the quarrels are more or less limited. And what was done in this article was more an ideological story, rather unrelated to economics (like about how the negotiations went).

An awkward question about democratic mandate:

An opinion poll by Infratest Dimap for public broadcaster ARD published on Friday showed 68% of Germans blame the Greek government for the escalation of the debt crisis, with only 4% pointing the finger at other eurozone countries. The poll of 1,501 voters was conducted from June 29 to July 1 and had a margin of error of 1.4% to 3.1%.

In a separate Forschungsgruppe Wahlen survey for public broadcaster ZDF on Thursday, 85% of Germans said Europe was right not to have made more concessions to the Greek government. The poll of 1,234 respondents was conducted from June 30 to July 2 and had a margin of error of 2% to 3%.

Read more: http://www.nasdaq.com/article/greek...-open-resentment-20150704-00002#ixzz3f3pzmEOJ

As Tsiparis insisted, the will of People has to be respected ;) And more seriously with so big gap between societies the deal had been hard to get.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The problem with this referendum is that the Greeks cannot vote that Germany will give them a loan.

I also find it hard to blame the Institutions. Are their terms stupid and counter-productive? Yes. But the only reason they are being discussed is because nobody else will lend, and the reason that nobody else will lend is because Greece is not going to pay them back.

 

[Evo]

I thought that this article from 2012 citing what is wrong with Greece was good. It might be a good refresher on why they went downhill.

Tassos Chronopoulos, owner of Tassos, a Greek food importer based outside Chicago, says that the country’s disorganized agricultural business all but disqualified itself from partaking in the fancy-food craze of the past few decades. Greek growers never banded together to establish uniform quality standards and trade rules. (Chronopoulos often found bottles spiked with cheaper vegetable oil.) Frequent strikes at large ports damaged food and reputations. Until he found a reliable partner, Chronopoulos says that he constantly opened new shipments to see bottles with labels askew, wrinkled or missing. “They do not understand,” he says, “that a label not applied properly will make the sales suffer.”

Money from richer European taxpayers flowed to Greek farmers to upgrade their farms, “but the Europeans and the Greek government had no control mechanism,” he says. Instead of investing in new tractors, “the farmers were taking the money and buying things like Mercedeses.”

Good article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/08/magazine/what-greece-makes-the-world-might-take.html?_r=0

 

[mheslep]

"Greeks retire at 58". Greek effective retirement age:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonob...ve-retirement-age-vs-official-retirement-age/
62.4 years, above many European countries

The relevant retirement age to this discussion is that at which the government began paying pensions before the deficit frauds were discovered, as pensions are the major problem. No country in the EU spends as much as Greece (share of GDP). Apparently that age at the beginning of payments was 58.

 

[bohm2]

Bottom-line, Greece's problem was a clear economic mismanagement that didn't allow them to increase their productivity, and also because of the fast deindustralization they went through, not because they're lazy people trying to live off others, like this thread could easily make one think.

Yes, and according to this 2015 parliamentary report on the Truth about the Public debt, the increase in debt before 2010 was not due to excessive public spending but rather due to the payment of extremely high rates of interest to creditors and loss of tax revenues due to illicit capital outflows. Excessive military spending was another reason. But I'm not knowledgeable in this area to evaluate the accuracy of this report. Actually having relied on national media in Canada/US, I did believe that Greece got into trouble due to economic mismanagement. Now, after further reading, I'm less certain.

The Truth Committee on Public Debt (Debt Truth Committee) was established on April 4, 2015, by a decision of the President of the Hellenic Parliament, Ms Zoe Konstantopoulou, who confided the Scientific Coordination of its work to Dr. Eric Toussaint and the cooperation of the Committee with the European Parliament and other Parliaments and international organizations to MEP Ms Sofia Sakorafa. Members of the Committee have convened in public and closed sessions, to produce this preliminary report, under the supervision of the scientific coordinator and with the cooperation and input of other members of the Committee, as well as experts and contributors.

Truth Committee on Public Debt (Debt Truth Committee)
http://debt-truth.gr/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Report_UK.pdf

 

[mheslep]

" increase in debt before 2010 was not due to excessive public spending but rather due to the payment of extremely high rates of interest to creditors... Excessive military spending was another reason."

10 year Greek bond rate going back to 2008. Average around 4%. And I think it is fair to say that no country in Europe has "excessive" military spending.

 

[votingmachine]

" increase in debt before 2010 was not due to excessive public spending but rather due to the payment of extremely high rates of interest to creditors... Excessive military spending was another reason."

10 year Greek bond rate going back to 2008. Average around 4%. And I think it is fair to say that no country in Europe has "excessive" military spending.

I've done this calculation before. Greece has 175% of GDP as debt. If they have borrowed at an average 8% (and the data shows 8% rate at early 2010), then they have to make interest only payments of about 14% of GDP. That is unaffordable, especially with the crushing unemployment and Great Depression they are in.

I think there is plenty of blame. Corruption and irresponsibility. Greece never should have been allowed to join the EU in the first place. There government budget did not qualify them at that time, when they had a prosperous economy.

Without some kind of economic miracle, Greece cannot repay the debt they owe. It seems better for all involved to agree to that. It seems better for Greece to not be in the EU, and for the EU to work out what bailouts they need to workout directly with the banks. They can try to bailout the banks via Greece, as they have been, but that really does work with an unrealistic economic miracle happening eventually.

Greece has issues they need to fix, in order to have self-sufficiency, and lower corruption. It seems best if they work those out as an independent country.

Whether they keep using the Euro as the ordinary currency is not ovious. They might be able to do that, although it seems that the immediate need for the government to write IOU's within Greece leads immediately to a de facto new currency.

Those borrowing interest rates for Greece say to me that the interest they are paying on their current debt is already at an unsupportable level.

 

[StevieTNZ]

I just read an article about what the 'no' result of the vote means for Greece: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11476530

NZ's dollar has hit a new five year low, due to the result: http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/699...are-for-repercussions-of-a-greek-debt-default -- however it appears New Zealand's economy will be effected very lightly by the result.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The fact that a committee has to call itself a "truth committee" already makes me suspicious they have an axe to grind.

First, nobody goes out and picks an interest rate. The lender picks the rate, and its determined by how risky the borrower was. Greek debt was assessed to be risky. And, to quote Clevon Little, "And they was right!"

Second, Greece spends 2.2% on defense. By treaty, this can go no lower than 2%. So we have 0.2% of wiggle room, compared to 16.7% on pensions. It's surely not the primary problem.

Third, I don't think anyone doubts that Greece was lent too much in the past. Certainly not the people who lent them money and never saw it again. But the solution surely isn't "lend us more money" or even "let us not pay back what we have already borrowed, and then lend us more money".

Finally, an insolvent Greek government does not have to leave the EU or even the euro. They might want to, and there might even be good reason to, but they don't have to.

 

[StevieTNZ]

The Greek Finance Minister has resigned -- http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/world/70013098/greek-finance-minister-yanis-varoufakis-resigns

Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis, whose forceful denunciations of creditors alienated many of his euro zone colleagues, has resigned, saying Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras believed it would help smooth the path to a new aid deal. ...
In a statement, Varoufakis said he had been "made aware" that some members of the euro zone considered him unwelcome at meetings of finance ministers, "an idea the prime minister judged to be potentially helpful to him in reaching an agreement".

"For this reason I am leaving the ministry of finance today."

 

[StatGuy2000]

I thought that this article from 2012 citing what is wrong with Greece was good. It might be a good refresher on why they went downhill.

Good article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/08/magazine/what-greece-makes-the-world-might-take.html?_r=0

I found this article both surprising in some ways (I did not realize that the Greek economy was as productive over the past 60 years), as well as underscoring the main points I had addressed earlier (principally, the destructive effects of the political instability inherent within Greek history, which had a lasting impact on economic development in the country). I also find interesting the suggestion for a path forward for economic growth in Greece, although I really can't see how this path can be achieved while the country is currently within the eurozone under the conditions currently presented by the creditors. Leaving the eurozone may be the only viable way forward at this stage.

 

[tom aaron]

I found this article both surprising in some ways (I did not realize that the Greek economy was as productive over the past 60 years), as well as underscoring the main points I had addressed earlier (principally, the destructive effects of the political instability inherent within Greek history, which had a lasting impact on economic development in the country). I also find interesting the suggestion for a path forward for economic growth in Greece, although I really can't see how this path can be achieved while the country is currently within the eurozone under the conditions currently presented by the creditors. Leaving the eurozone may be the only viable way forward at this stage.

The issue isn't a viable economy, it's a viable economy with First world standard of living. Greece was given a hands up in standard of living when it joined the EU. Those of us in western nations just assume that we will have access to the amenities we live with day to day...never give them much thought.

The idea of the Greeks returning to the Drachma and going on their own are not just words. When you are raised in other conditions and taste a better life, it is not easy to return to a more austere living. I like to visit Columbia, have a brother in Kenya, but, yes, always like to get back to my modest lifestyle in Canada...grocery stores with full shelves, electricity that always comes on when I flick the switch, buses that are safe, clean water, etc. Things that impact everyday life. Western countries provide an incredible infrastructure for day to day living. Not easy to no longer have the Finns, Germans, Danes paying for this and return to 'getting by'.

 

[JonDE]

Before I start, I want to say that I am NOT suggesting this as a solution, just a random thought that had occurred to me.

The US stock market is down around 0.5% today, mainly on the news coming out of Greece. So I wondered how much money was lost on the stock market today, and how this compared to the total debt that Greece owed. Well it turns out that finding current numbers on the total stock market value, is not as easy as it sounds. I was only able to find numbers from 2012 that valued it at 18.6 trillion dollars. That put the total stock market loss at around 900 billion. Converting this to the Euro puts it around 813 billion Euros. I also found that as of June 30th, Greece debt stands around 315 billion Euros.

As expected, the losses are even greater in Europe. The FTSE 100 ended the day down .7%, the DAX was down 1.5%, and the CAC 40 was down 2%. Unfortunately, it is impossible to tell how much of this was based on the Greek vote, or other news, but I think most would agree that the Greek vote was the major news story as far as the stock market is concerned.

So the stock market loss seems to be several times larger then what Greece even owes, and financially it would make sense for everyone to bail them out. Once again, I'm not actually suggesting that the US should bail out Greece, mostly because, why should we? We didn't cause this mess. Also it could be seen as rewarding bad behavior and could let other countries known that if they messed up that we would be there to give them free money.

Just some food for thought.

 

[votingmachine]

Before I start, I want to say that I am NOT suggesting this as a solution, just a random thought that had occurred to me.

The US stock market is down around 0.5% today, mainly on the news coming out of Greece. So I wondered how much money was lost on the stock market today, and how this compared to the total debt that Greece owed. Well it turns out that finding current numbers on the total stock market value, is not as easy as it sounds. I was only able to find numbers from 2012 that valued it at 18.6 trillion dollars. That put the total stock market loss at around 900 billion. Converting this to the Euro puts it around 813 billion Euros. I also found that as of June 30th, Greece debt stands around 315 billion Euros.

As expected, the losses are even greater in Europe. The FTSE 100 ended the day down .7%, the DAX was down 1.5%, and the CAC 40 was down 2%. Unfortunately, it is impossible to tell how much of this was based on the Greek vote, or other news, but I think most would agree that the Greek vote was the major news story as far as the stock market is concerned.

So the stock market loss seems to be several times larger then what Greece even owes, and financially it would make sense for everyone to bail them out. Once again, I'm not actually suggesting that the US should bail out Greece, mostly because, why should we? We didn't cause this mess. Also it could be seen as rewarding bad behavior and could let other countries known that if they messed up that we would be there to give them free money.

Just some food for thought.

It is like the old saying: if you owe the bank $100 and can't pay, you have a problem. If you owe the bank $1 million and can't pay, the bank has a problem. In this case the bank is much of the rest of the world.

 

[mheslep]

So the stock market loss seems to be several times larger then what Greece even owes, and financially it would make sense for everyone to bail them out.

1. It's not possible to observe the net one day losses in a stock market and attribute *all* of it to a single cause. And even if you could, what if the market is up a net, say, 0.5% later, at the end of the week?
2. Greece is not the only nation of interest in this EU financial crisis. Bailout Greece once it has elected a radical they-are-out-get-us government that won't pay its creditors, and then the other high debt/GDP nations, Portugal, Spain, and Italy, have incentive to behave similarly. The EU might well survive a Greek exit, but not that of the others.

 

[mheslep]

In this case the bank is much of the rest of the world.

To the contrary, most of Greek debt is held by a few countries. They (France and Germany) can survive the default. If a new Greek bailout tempts several other, larger countries to similarly default, then that debt is indeed held by a more global list of creditors and at levels that will cause more defaults should they fail to get payment on their loans.

 

[tom aaron]

Before I start, I want to say that I am NOT suggesting this as a solution, just a random thought that had occurred to me.

The US stock market is down around 0.5% today, mainly on the news coming out of Greece. So I wondered how much money was lost on the stock market today, and how this compared to the total debt that Greece owed. Well it turns out that finding current numbers on the total stock market value, is not as easy as it sounds. I was only able to find numbers from 2012 that valued it at 18.6 trillion dollars. That put the total stock market loss at around 900 billion. Converting this to the Euro puts it around 813 billion Euros. I also found that as of June 30th, Greece debt stands around 315 billion Euros.

As expected, the losses are even greater in Europe. The FTSE 100 ended the day down .7%, the DAX was down 1.5%, and the CAC 40 was down 2%. Unfortunately, it is impossible to tell how much of this was based on the Greek vote, or other news, but I think most would agree that the Greek vote was the major news story as far as the stock market is concerned.

So the stock market loss seems to be several times larger then what Greece even owes, and financially it would make sense for everyone to bail them out. Once again, I'm not actually suggesting that the US should bail out Greece, mostly because, why should we? We didn't cause this mess. Also it could be seen as rewarding bad behavior and could let other countries known that if they messed up that we would be there to give them free money.

Just some food for thought.

Liberal economics. Your decimal point is in the wrong spot.

'Who' picks up the debt? (Again). No problem if you don't mind donating 'your' salary first. How about closing NASA and the world's space programs? How about Americans cutting off education for kids in a Detroit ghetto today for Greek pensions?
This helps how? Same issue next month as 5 years ago...last year. Close all research grants to pay for Greek inefficiencies?

 

[bohm2]

Leaving the eurozone may be the only viable way forward at this stage.

Yes, unless there is some restructuring, Greece cannot possibly repay the debt it owes to Troika, either by means of agreeing to more austerity or by "growing" out of the debt. There are some papers I've come across written in early June suggesting that Troica had realized this and may have decided to take the hardline stance (leading to default) in order to attain an easier bargaining opponent and a more ‘reasonable’ public – both in Germany and in Greece – that agrees to some kind of debt restructuring." But who really knows.

 

[StevieTNZ]

Part of the reality of some Greeks - I really feel for those who did nothing wrong but have been caught up in the economic mess - http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11476859&ref=nzh_tw

A businessman has tracked down a weeping elderly man after realizing he is an old family friend and vows to pay for his pension 'for as long as it takes' to get him back on his feet.

James Koufos, a finance CEO based in Sydney will fly half way around the world to help his old friend out, the Daily Mail Australiareported.

Giorgos Chatzifotiadis - the 77-year-old man was photographed weeping uncontrollably outside a bank in Thessaloniki and thanks to social media has now been re-united with his old friend who he went to school with.

Mr Chatzifotiadis was in tears after trying to withdraw his 120 euro weekly pension from multiple banks but was turned away.

Our PM didn't rule out yesterday offering aid to Greece - https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/john-key-can-t-rule-out-that-nz-may-need-to-offer-greece-aid-q00136.html?autoPlay=4338936946001

 

[tom aaron]

Part of the reality of some Greeks - I really feel for those who did nothing wrong but have been caught up in the economic mess - http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11476859&ref=nzh_tw
Our PM didn't rule out yesterday offering aid to Greece - https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/john-key-can-t-rule-out-that-nz-may-need-to-offer-greece-aid-q00136.html?autoPlay=4338936946001

Greece is a democracy. The people have elected incompetents to run their country. The people have rejected those who proposed reform of social programs, etc. Then they have voted no in a referendum.

Should Greece be recolonized because the Greek people are like children and not responsible for heir own actions?

Yes, I feel sorry for some individuals. However, this is for Greeks to work out. As a boy (unlike my parents) I also felt sorry for Germans who lived across the Rhine from us...but they were responsible for their own fate.

The Germans are going to pat Greece on the head and give them even more money. The Greeks will reform zip...pay back nothing in total.. Greeks will immigrate and nothing will change for the better.

 

[StevieTNZ]

Greece is a democracy. The people have elected incompetents to run their country. The people have rejected those who proposed reform of social programs, etc. Then they have voted no in a referendum.

Should Greece be recolonized because the Greek people are like children and not responsible for heir own actions?

Yes, I feel sorry for some individuals. However, this is for Greeks to work out. As a boy (unlike my parents) I also felt sorry for Germans who lived across the Rhine from us...but they were responsible for their own fate.

The Germans are going to pat Greece on the head and give them even more money. The Greeks will reform zip...pay back nothing in total.. Greeks will immigrate and nothing will change for the better.

I would reject the notion that every Greek is responsible for what the Government did -- some did not vote that particular Government in. Also some people voted yes in the referendum.

 

[votingmachine]

To the contrary, most of Greek debt is held by a few countries. They (France and Germany) can survive the default. If a new Greek bailout tempts several other, larger countries to similarly default, then that debt is indeed held by a more global list of creditors and at levels that will cause more defaults should they fail to get payment on their loans.

If your statement is that Germany and France are the two largest holders of Greek debt ... I agree. But that is not to the contrary of what I said, but a second, unrelated comment. I said the Greek debt is held by much of the world, which is true.

Here is a breakdown of the Eurozone debt, which is the largest part. There are certainly other holders of debt though.
http://www.euronews.com/2015/02/03/greek-debt-who-loaned-the-money/

I don't really think the comparison of stock market global market cap and the Greek debt tells us all that much. The markets are not a perfect predictor or indicator. The referendum tells us that any debt deal similar to the prior offer will be refused. There still can be a deal. There are some outcomes that are better than others. I agree that an outcome that ended up with wealth destruction via the stock markets would be worse than one without that drop. I think most of the options available have negative outcomes. The can has been kicked down the road for a while, and it may finally be impractical to kick it further.

And I am a big fan of kicking the can down the road. I've seen so many global problems diminish or disappear with time that I approve of that as a plan. As a parent, I can tell you that if you can put off a child, you can usually win the war, without actually ever fighting the battle. A simple, "next time", for a few successive times and let maturity take its course. But if it can't be postponed, then the Germans, the French, and the Greeks, should figure out the best answer available to them, and the IMF, and the smaller deb holders can just fall in line.

 

[russ_watters]

I would reject the notion that every Greek is responsible for what the Government did -- some did not vote that particular Government in. Also some people voted yes in the referendum.

What you said before is that not every Greek "did something wrong". But pretty much all except those who are currently kids did, and the old/retired did the most wrong: they didn't pay their fair share into a fundamentally flawed system that promised to pay them back money they didn't pay in. Even the hypothetical Greek who made every "right" voting decision did this.

One can mitigate their own pain by recognizing it and making preparations for the coming disaster(see also: Social Security), but for those who do neither, I have little sympathy.

But even that aside, democracy only works if the voters take ownership of the decisions of the whole.