Group mono-, endo-, iso-, homomorphism

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of group operations defined on the Cartesian product of two groups, specifically examining the operation $\star$ on $G \times H$. Participants explore whether certain mappings are monomorphisms or endomorphisms, and whether the groups $G$ and $H$ are isomorphic, using examples from group theory.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Participants define the operation $\star$ on $G \times H$ and discuss the axioms of group theory that need to be satisfied.
  • Some participants suggest checking if the mappings defined are homomorphisms and whether they satisfy the conditions for being monomorphisms or endomorphisms.
  • There is a proposal to verify the injectivity and surjectivity of the mappings to establish their properties.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about the definitions of the operations and whether the groups can be considered isomorphic based on the orders of their elements.
  • There is a correction regarding the terminology used for mappings, with a participant clarifying the difference between endomorphisms and epimorphisms.
  • Participants discuss the operations used in the groups, questioning whether to use addition or the defined operations $\#$, $\square$, and $\star$.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the groups $G$ and $H$ are isomorphic, as there are differing views on the implications of the orders of elements and the definitions of the operations involved.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the definitions of the operations and the mappings, as well as the implications of the properties of the groups involved. Some participants express confusion about the notation and the operations used in the context of the discussion.

mathmari
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Hey! 😊

Let $(G, \#), \ (H, \square )$ be groups. Show:
  1. For $(g,h), (g',h')\in G\times H$ we define the operation $\star$ on $G\star H$ as follows:
    \begin{equation*}\star: (G\times H)\times (G\times H,\star), \ \left ((g,h), (g',h')\right )\mapsto (g\# g', h\square h')\end{equation*} Then $(G\times H, \star)$ is a group.
  2. The map $G\rightarrow G\times H, \ g\mapsto (g, e_H)$ is a monomorphism, where $e_H$ is the neutral element in $H$.
  3. The map $G\times H\rightarrow G, \ (g,h)\mapsto g$ is an endomorphism.
  4. Let $G=\mathbb{Z}/4\mathbb{Z}$ and $H=\mathbb{Z}/2\mathbb{Z}\times \mathbb{Z}/2\mathbb{Z}$. Does it hold that $G\sim H$ ?

For 1:
We have to show that the four axioms (closure, associativity, identity, inverse) are satisfied. For 2:
Let $\phi$ be the name of that map. Then we have that $\phi (g\#g')=(g\#g', e_H)$. How could we continue? For 3:
Let $\psi$ be the name of that map. Then we have that $\psi ((g,h)\star (g',h'))=(g\#g', h\square h')$. How could we continue? For 4:
We have to define $f:G\rightarrow H$ and check if this map is bijective, right? :unsure:
 
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mathmari said:
For 1:
We have to show that the four axioms (closure, associativity, identity, inverse) are satisfied.

Hey mathmari!

Yep. (Nod)

Btw, shouldn't it be:
  • For $(g,h), (g',h')\in G\times H$ we define the operation $\star$ on $G\times H$ as follows:
    \begin{equation*}\star: (G\times H)\times (G\times H)\to (G\times H), \ \left ((g,h), (g',h')\right )\mapsto (g\# g', h\square h')\end{equation*} Then $(G\times H, \star)$ is a group.
? (Wondering)

mathmari said:
For 2:
Let $\phi$ be the name of that map. Then we have that $\phi (g\#g')=(g\#g', e_H)$. How could we continue?

Shouldn't we check if it is equal to $\phi(g)\star \phi(g')$? 🤔

mathmari said:
For 3:
Let $\psi$ be the name of that map. Then we have that $\psi ((g,h)\star (g',h'))=(g\#g', h\square h')$. How could we continue?

Shouldn't we check if it is equal to $\psi((g,h))\star\psi((g',h'))$? 🤔

mathmari said:
For 4:
We have to define $f:G\rightarrow H$ and check if this map is bijective, right?

Shouldn't we check if the map is a homomorphism as well? 🤔
 
Klaas van Aarsen said:
Btw, shouldn't it be:
  • For $(g,h), (g',h')\in G\times H$ we define the operation $\star$ on $G\times H$ as follows:
    \begin{equation*}\star: (G\times H)\times (G\times H)\to (G\times H), \ \left ((g,h), (g',h')\right )\mapsto (g\# g', h\square h')\end{equation*} Then $(G\times H, \star)$ is a group.
? (Wondering)

Ahh yes!

It is closed since the result of $(g,h)\star (g',h')$ with $(g,h), (g',h')\in G\times H$ is again in $G\times H$.

We have that \begin{align*}&[(g,h)\star (g',h')]\star (\tilde{g},\tilde{h})=(g\# g', h\square h')\star (\tilde{g},\tilde{h})=(g\# g'\#\tilde{g}, h\square h'\square \tilde{h}) \\ &(g,h)\star [(g',h')\star (\tilde{g},\tilde{h})]=(g,h)\star (g'\# \tilde{g},h'\square \tilde{h})= (g\#g'\# \tilde{g},h\square h'\square \tilde{h})\end{align*}
So the associativity follows.

The identity is $(e_G,e_H)$ since $(g,h)\star (e_G,e_H)=(g\# e_G, h\square e_H)=(g,h)$ and $ (e_G,e_H)\star (g,h)=(e_G\# g, e_H\square h)=(g,h)$.

Since $G$ and $H$ are groups, they have closed by inverses. So $g^{-1}\in G$ and $h^{-1}\in H$ the inverses of $g$ and $h$ respectively. Then the inverse of $(g,h)\in G\times H$ is $(g^{-1}, h^{-1})$ since $(g,h)\star (g^{-1}, h^{-1})=(g\# g^{-1}, h\square h^{-1})=(e_G,e_H)$ and $ (g^{-1},h^{-1})\star (g,h)=(g^{-1}\# g, h^{-1}\square h)=(e_G,e_H)$.

So it follows that $(G\times H, \star)$ is a group.
Klaas van Aarsen said:
Shouldn't we check if it is equal to $\phi(g)\star \phi(g')$? 🤔

We have that $\phi(g)\star \phi(g')=(g,e_H)\star (g',e_H)=(g\#g', e_H\square e_H)$. It holds that $e_H\square e_H=e_H$ because $e_H$ is the neutral element of $H$, right?
Since $\phi (g\#g')=(g\#g', e_H)$ and so $\phi(g)\star \phi(g')=\phi (g\#g')$

Further we have to show that $\phi$ is injective. Let $\phi(g)= \phi(g')$. Then we get $(g,e_H)=(g',e_H)$ and it follows that $g=g'$.
Therefore $\phi$ is injective and so it is a monmorphism.
Klaas van Aarsen said:
Shouldn't we check if it is equal to $\psi((g,h))\star\psi((g',h'))$? 🤔

We have that $\psi((g,h))\star\psi((g',h'))=g\star g'$. Is this correct? Isn't the operation $\star$ defined at elements of $G\times H$ but we have elements of $G$. :unsure:
Klaas van Aarsen said:
Shouldn't we check if the map is a homomorphism as well? 🤔

Ok.. But how is the map defined? :unsure:
 
mathmari said:
We have that $\psi((g,h))\star\psi((g',h'))=g\star g'$. Is this correct? Isn't the operation $\star$ defined at elements of $G\times H$ but we have elements of $G$.

Ah, I intended $\psi((g,h))\#\psi((g',h'))$. (Blush)
mathmari said:
Ok.. But how is the map defined?
I think we have to come up with a map ourselves, don't we?
Or otherwise prove that there is no such map.
We might check what the order of the elements are to see if there is such a map. 🤔
 
Klaas van Aarsen said:
Ah, I intended $\psi((g,h))\#\psi((g',h'))$. (Blush)

Ahh! So we have that $\psi((g,h))\#\psi((g',h'))=g\#g$. We also have that $\psi ((g,h)\star (g',h'))=\psi((g\#g', h\square h'))=g\#g'$.
Therefore $\psi$ is an homomorphism.

It is left to show that $\psi$ is surjective. For each $g\in G$ there is an element $(g,h)\in G\times H$ for some $h\in H$ such that $\psi ((g,h))=g$.
Therefore $\psi$ is an endomorphism.

Is that correct? :unsure:
Klaas van Aarsen said:
I think we have to come up with a map ourselves, don't we?
Or otherwise prove that there is no such map.
We might check what the order of the elements are to see if there is such a map. 🤔

We have that the orders of elements of $\mathbb{Z}_2 \times \mathbb{Z}_2$ are $|(0, 0)| = 1, |(0, 1)| = 2, |(1, 0)| = 2, |(1, 1)| = 2$, while the orders of the elements of $\mathbb{Z}_4$ are $|0| = 1, |1| = 4, |2| = 2$, and $|3| = 4$. Since at $\mathbb{Z}_4$ there is an element of order 4 but not in $\mathbb{Z}_2 \times \mathbb{Z}_2$, these cannot be isomorphic, right? :unsure:
 
mathmari said:
Therefore $\psi$ is an endomorphism.

Is that correct?

It's not an endomorphism is it?
An endomorphism is a homomorphism from a group to the same group. (Worried)

mathmari said:
these cannot be isomorphic, right?
Indeed. :)
 
Klaas van Aarsen said:
It's not an endomorphism is it?
An endomorphism is a homomorphism from a group to the same group. (Worried)

Oh I meant epimorphism, it was typo...Sorry!
Klaas van Aarsen said:
Indeed. :)

In this case, for these $G$ and $H$ do we consider the operations as above or the addition? :unsure:
 
mathmari said:
Oh I meant epimorphism, it was typo...Sorry!

Then it is correct. :)
mathmari said:
In this case, for these $G$ and $H$ do we consider the operations as above or the addition?

For $G$ it is indeed addition.
For $H$ it would be the $\star$ as above where each individual operation is addition, wouldn't it? 🤔
 
Klaas van Aarsen said:
For $G$ it is indeed addition.
For $H$ it would be the $\star$ as above where each individual operation is addition, wouldn't it? 🤔

So in this case we consider $\#$ to be $+$.
But at $H$ above we have $\square$, why do we consider here $\star$ ? I got stuck right now. Or do you mean at $G\star H$ to consider $\star$ ? :unsure:
 
  • #10
mathmari said:
So in this case we consider $\#$ to be $+$.
But at $H$ above we have $\square$, why do we consider here $\star$ ? I got stuck right now. Or do you mean at $G\star H$ to consider $\star$ ?
The symbols $G$ and $H$ are confusing here since we had the group $(G\times H,\star)$ above, which is not what we have in this question 5.
Let's rename the groups in question 5 to $\tilde G = (\mathbb Z/4\mathbb Z,+)$ and $\tilde H=(\mathbb Z/2\mathbb Z\times \mathbb Z/2\mathbb Z,\star)$, where $(a,b)\star(c,d)=(a+b,c+d)$.
So the operation for $\tilde G$ is simply $+$, which is the default operation on $\mathbb Z/n\mathbb Z$. No need to involve $\#$ here.
And both $\#$ and $\square$ are $+$ for $\tilde H$. Instead of $\star$, we might also simply use $+$.

Does it make sense now? (Wondering)
 
Last edited:

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