Group Velocity of EMW: Conditions \& Expression

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the group velocity of electromagnetic waves in a medium characterized by a specific electric permittivity expression. Participants are exploring how to derive the group velocity expression and the conditions under which it adheres to the principle of relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the relationship between the given electric permittivity and the group velocity, questioning how to connect these concepts. There are mentions of phase velocity and its relation to the refractive index, as well as attempts to derive the group velocity from the wave number and angular frequency relationship.

Discussion Status

The conversation is active, with participants sharing insights and corrections regarding the expressions for wave number and permittivity. Some guidance has been provided on how to approach the differentiation needed to find the group velocity, and there is an ongoing exploration of the conditions required for the group velocity to remain less than or equal to the speed of light.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the assumption that the permeability is approximately constant for most media, and there is a recognition of the need to derive conditions for the constants involved in the electric permittivity expression.

dingo_d
Messages
199
Reaction score
0

Homework Statement



Electromagnetic wave, with the frequency [itex]\omega[/itex], travels through the medium for which:
[itex]\epsilon=\epsilon_0\left(1+\frac{\omega_p^2}{\omega_0^2-\omega^2}\right)[/itex]
where [itex]\omega_p[/itex] and [itex]\omega_0[/itex] are constants. How does the expression for the group velocity [itex]v_g(\omega)[/itex] looks like? What condition do the constants need to satisfy so that the relativity principle [itex]v_g\leq c[/itex] should hold?


Homework Equations


The expression for group velocity of the traveling wave is [itex]v_g=\frac{d\omega}{dk}[/itex]
where [itex]\omega[/itex] is angular frequency and k is wave number (vector in 3D).


The Attempt at a Solution



The problem is I don't really know where to start. I have the expression for electric permittivity, and I don't know how to connect that with group velocity of the emw. Does anyone know how to start, and what to look? Thnx!
 
Physics news on Phys.org
You (should) know that the phase velocity is also found from

[tex] v_p=c\cdot n(\omega)[/tex]

Do you know of any relations between the dielectric permittivity you are given and the real refractive index [itex]n(\omega)[/itex]?
 
We have learned that [itex]v_p=\frac{c}{n(k)}[/itex], and our substitute assistant said sth about:

[itex]k^2=\mu\epsilon\frac{\omega^2}{c^2}[/itex]

And he said that that was form our general physics class when we learned about electricity and magnetism, but I really can't recall when and where did we learn that :\

EDIT: No, that first term I found in Jacson: Classical electrodynamics, and this problem is from general physics class (sth like 8.03 in MIT)
 
dingo_d said:
[itex]k^2=\mu\epsilon\frac{\omega^2}{c^2}[/itex]

This is all you need to solve this problem...For most media, [itex]\mu\approx\mu_0[/itex], so I think that is a fair assumption to make here (Or at least assume that [itex]\mu[/itex] is independent of [itex]\omega[/itex]). After that, just substitute in your expression for [itex]\epsilon[/itex] and find [itex]\frac{d\omega}{d k}[/itex] through implicit differentiation of the above expression.

Side note: The above expression can be easily derived by looking at the fields of a plane wave (with wavenumber [itex]k[/itex] and angular frequency [itex]\omega[/itex]) and seeing what conditions are necessary for such fields to satisfy Maxwell's equations (or, equivalently, the wave equation) in a medium with permittivity [itex]\epsilon[/itex].
 
Whoops, I was thinking phase velocity and you wanted group velocity...
 
gabbagabbahey said:
This is all you need to solve this problem...For most media, [itex]\mu\approx\mu_0[/itex], so I think that is a fair assumption to make here (Or at least assume that [itex]\mu[/itex] is independent of [itex]\omega[/itex]). After that, just substitute in your expression for [itex]\epsilon[/itex] and find [itex]\frac{d\omega}{d k}[/itex] through implicit differentiation of the above expression.

Side note: The above expression can be easily derived by looking at the fields of a plane wave (with wavenumber [itex]k[/itex] and angular frequency [itex]\omega[/itex]) and seeing what conditions are necessary for such fields to satisfy Maxwell's equations (or, equivalently, the wave equation) in a medium with permittivity [itex]\epsilon[/itex].

Thank you very much! I'll do that! :)
 
Sorry, I just noticed your expression is actually incorrect...it should really be:

[tex]k^2=\mu\epsilon \omega^2=\mu_r\epsilon_r \frac{\omega^2}{c^2}[/tex]

(And of course, this is only true for a non-conducting, source-free medium)
 
gabbagabbahey said:
Sorry, I just noticed your expression is actually incorrect...it should really be:

[tex]k^2=\mu\epsilon \omega^2=\mu_r\epsilon_r \frac{\omega^2}{c^2}[/tex]

(And of course, this is only true for a non-conducting, source-free medium)

Yeah, because [itex]\mu =\mu_0\mu_r[/itex]? Right? And [itex]\mu_0\epsilon_0=\frac{1}{c^2}[/itex]...

EDIT: After I put my original eq. into the [tex]k^2=\mu\epsilon \omega^2=\mu_r\epsilon_r \frac{\omega^2}{c^2}[/tex] I get quadratic equation for [tex]\omega_{1,2}^2[/tex]. So I get my solutions and derive those with the respect to k?

[tex]v_g=\frac{d\omega}{dk}=\frac{1}{2\omega}\frac{d\omega^2}{dk}[/tex]?
 
Last edited:
dingo_d said:
Yeah, because [itex]\mu =\mu_0\mu_r[/itex]? Right? And [itex]\mu_0\epsilon_0=\frac{1}{c^2}[/itex]...

Yup.

EDIT: After I put my original eq. into the [tex]k^2=\mu\epsilon \omega^2=\mu_r\epsilon_r \frac{\omega^2}{c^2}[/tex] I get quadratic equation for [tex]\omega_{1,2}^2[/tex]. So I get my solutions and derive those with the respect to k?

[tex]v_g=\frac{d\omega}{dk}=\frac{1}{2\omega}\frac{d\omega^2}{dk}[/tex]?

That's one way to do it (although [itex]\omega[/itex] is positive by definition, so I suspect you can throw away one of your solutions), but I suggest an easier method is as follows:

[tex]k^2=f(\omega)\implies 2k=f'(\omega)\frac{d\omega}{d k}\implies \frac{d\omega}{d k}=2\frac{\sqrt{f(\omega)}}{f'(\omega)}[/tex]
 
  • #10
gabbagabbahey said:
... I suggest an easier method is as follows:

[tex]k^2=f(\omega)\implies 2k=f'(\omega)\frac{d\omega}{d k}\implies \frac{d\omega}{d k}=2\frac{\sqrt{f(\omega)}}{f'(\omega)}[/tex]

Oh, ok! :D So I put my expression for [tex]\epsilon[/tex] in the [tex]k^2[/tex] expression and derive it, and I get my [tex]v_g=\frac{d\omega}{dk}[/tex] immediately? That's great!

Thank you very much!

P.S. I thought about asking you about that last expression you got, but then I wrote it down and I figured how you got it :) Silly me :D

EDIT: I have solved it and it came out as:

[tex]v_g=\frac{d\omega}{dk}=\frac{(\omega_0^2-\omega^2)\sqrt{\varepsilon_0\mu\omega^2\left(1+\frac{\omega_p^2}{\omega_0^2-\omega^2}\right)}}{\varepsilon_0\mu\omega(\omega_0^4+\omega^4+\omega_0^2(\omega_p^2-2\omega^2))}[/tex]

What conditions should [tex]\omega_p[/tex] and [tex]\omega_0[/tex] satisfy so that my group velocity is smaller or equal than c? Do I solve the inequality?
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K