Groups and representations

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the tensor product of matrices and group representations, specifically whether the tensor product of matrix representations of two groups forms a representation of the tensor product of the groups themselves. Participants also explore the implications of these representations in the context of the electromagnetic current and its relation to the fundamental and adjoint representations of SU(N).

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the tensor product of matrix representations of groups A and B forms a representation of the group AxB, noting that their instinct is to use a block diagonal matrix instead.
  • Another participant agrees that the tensor product of matrix representations gives a representation of AxB but states that this is not necessarily true for the fundamental representation.
  • A later reply discusses the adjoint representation, suggesting that the electromagnetic current does not belong to the fundamental representation due to the absence of spinor indices.
  • One participant seeks a proof for the first claim and considers the behavior of indices transforming under the fundamental representation, mentioning the use of the BCH formula.
  • Another participant provides an example involving SO(4) and SU(2) representations, suggesting that while block-diagonal matrices form a representation of GxH, such representations are generally reducible.
  • There is confusion expressed regarding the definition of the fundamental representation in the context of direct products of groups.
  • One participant attempts to show that a specific expression transforms under the adjoint representation but struggles to apply similar reasoning to the product of two fields without generators.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between the tensor product of matrix representations and the representations of the groups involved. There is no consensus on whether the tensor product leads to a representation in the fundamental representation of AxB, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the classification of the electromagnetic current.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the complexity of group representations, particularly in distinguishing between fundamental and adjoint representations, and the implications of these distinctions in the context of specific physical theories.

Bobhawke
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I have a few questions:

1) The tensor product of two matrices is define by

[tex]A \otimes B =\left( {\begin{array}{cc}<br /> a_{11}B & a_{12}B \\<br /> a_{21}B & a_{22}B \\<br /> \end{array} } \right)[/tex]

for the 2x2 case with obvious generalisation to higher dimensions.

The tensor product of two groups is defined by
[tex]G \otimes H = \ { (g,h) \vert g \epsilon G , h\epsilon H \ }[/tex]

My question is this: Does the tensor product, defined in the first equation, of two matrix representations of groups A and B form a representation of the tensor product of the two groups as defined in the second equation? And if so, why?

A general element of the group AxB is (a,b), with the group operation defined in the obvious way ie
[tex](a_1 , b_1) * (a_2 , b_2) = (a_1 a_2 , b_1 b_2)[/tex]
My first instinct to form a matrix representation of the group AxB would be to take matrix reps of A and B and make a block diagonal matrix out of them. Then if I multiplied together two such matrices I would get exactly the multiplication law described above.

However, the tensor product of matrix reps of A and B gives something completely different. It is not clear to me that such a matrix should be a rep of the group AxB, or that it should obey the above multiplication law if we use matrix multiplication.

2) Assuming that the tensor product of matric reps of groups A and B gives a matrix rep of the group AxB, then:
If the matrix reps of A and B are in the the fundamental representation, does the matrix I get by taking their tensor product live in the fundamental representation of AxB?

Finally...
3) This all came from a statement in a book I am reading at the moment, namely:
"The electromagnetic current belongs to the singlet and adjoint representation of SU(N)"
where the eleectromagnetic current is
[tex]j_{\mu} = \psi_a \gamma_{\mu} \psi_b[/tex]
where a and b are flavour indices transforming under the fundamental represenation of SU(N). It is not clear to me why this object should be in the "singlet and adjoint representation" of SU(N).



Thanks in advance.
 
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1) Yes.
2) Not necessarily.
3) Follow the defination of adjoint representation. A quick way to see this: the current has no spinor indices like a and b, so it cannot belong to the fundamental represenation of SU(N).
 
Do you know where I might find a proof of 1)?

Im having some trouble with 3). I am considering how something with two indices each transforming under the fundamental representation behaves. I get two exponentials, which I want to combine into one, so I am thinking I need to use the BCH formula. In the end I want this to look like

[tex]\exp{i \Lambda^a f^{a}_{bc}}[/tex]

since the structure constants are the generators in the adjoints rep. But I can't see how to get this from the BCH formula.
 
I always thought 2 was true. For example, SO(4)=SU(2)xSU(2), and you characterize the irreducible representations of SO(4) by the fundamental representations of SU(2): (0,0), (1/2,0), (0,1/2), (1/2,1/2) ...

I think you're confusing some concepts of group theory. Take the direct product of groups G and H, GxH. If you stack G and H in block-diagonal form in a larger matrix, then this larger matrix does form a representation of the group GxH. However, in general, this representation will be reducible. An example is the fundamental representation of SU(5) under the subgroup SU(3)xSU(2)xU(1). This representation breaks up into (3,1,Y)+(1,2,Y'), where Y and Y' is the U(1) hypercharge which I can't remember.

edit: o wait, for 2) you said fundamental representation, not irreducible representation. oops. actually come to think of it I don't know what fundamental representation means when it comes to direct products of groups.
 
Ok I can show that [tex]F_{\mu \nu}= F_{\mu \nu}^a t^a[/tex] transforms under the adjoint representation, in the sense that one of the contracted indices a gets acted on by a matrix in the adjoint rep (which is kinda weird I think), but the proof relies on the fact that it is contracted with the generators. I can't figure out why [tex]\psi_a \psi_b[/tex] would transform under the adjoint because there are no generators kicking about, so the proof I did seems not to work.

RedX, when I said fundamental rep of AxB I guess I assumed that this would be isomorphic to a group whose fundamental rep would be defined.
 
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