Heine-Borel Theorem shouldn't work for open intervals?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Heine-Borel Theorem and its application to closed intervals in the real numbers, particularly focusing on the compactness of the interval [a,b]. Participants explore various proofs and reasoning related to the theorem, questioning the validity of certain steps and the implications for open covers.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant attempts to prove that the closed interval [a,b] is compact by constructing a finite subcover from an infinite open cover, but expresses confusion over the validity of their approach.
  • Another participant challenges a specific step in the proof, stating that the reasoning leading to a point where a sum of intervals reaches b is invalid.
  • Concerns are raised about the assumption that sums of certain intervals can reach the endpoint b, with examples provided to illustrate potential counterexamples.
  • Some participants argue that since the interval is covered by open sets, neighborhoods of points within the interval should also be contained in those open sets.
  • Clarifications are made regarding the nature of open sets in relation to the topology of the closed interval, with specific intervals being identified as not open in that context.
  • A detailed proof of the compactness of [a,b] is presented, which utilizes the least upper bound axiom and emphasizes the necessity of including neighborhoods that contain the endpoint b in the open cover.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement on the validity of certain steps in the proof of compactness, with multiple competing views on how to properly apply the Heine-Borel Theorem to closed intervals. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the initial proof attempt.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight limitations in the reasoning presented, particularly regarding the assumptions made about the sums of intervals and their relation to the endpoints of the closed interval. The discussion also reflects varying interpretations of open sets in the context of the closed interval's topology.

Utilite
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Okay, I am studying Baby Rudin and I am in a lot of trouble.
I want to show that a closed interval [a,b] is compact in R. The book gives a proof for R^n but I am trying a different proof like thing.
Since a is in some open set of an infinite open cover, the interval [a,a+r_1) is in that open set for an r_1. Similarly a+r_1 is in the closed interval, [a+r_1,a+r_1+r_2) is in an open set. Going like this we can reach an r_k such that a+r_1+r_2...+r_k is greater than or equal to b. Therefore an interval [c,b] is an open set and those open sets form a subcover of an infinite open cover. M=min{r_1,r_2...r_k}>0 Therefore k needs to be less than or equal to (b-a)/M which is clearly finite. Even if every interval [a+r_1...r_i,a+r_1...r_(i+1)) is contained in different open sets the number of open sets is finite.
Every infinite open cover of an interval [a,b] has a finite subcover then it is compact.
I think I am making a mistake because this should work for [a,b). But [0,1) is not compact.
I am very confused, please help me out.
 
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Utilite said:
Going like this we can reach an r_k such that a+r_1+r_2...+r_k is greater than or equal to b.
This step is invalid.
 
andrewkirk said:
This step is invalid.
why??
 
Utilite said:
why??
We have no reason to expect that any sum of ##r_k##s will reach ##b-a##. That would be the case for instance if we had ##r_k=2^{-k}(b-a)##.
 
andrewkirk said:
We have no reason to expect that any sum of ##r_k##s will reach ##b-a##. That would be the case for instance if we had ##r_k=2^{-k}(b-a)##.
But since our interval is covered by open sets some neighbourhood of each point is a subset of an open set. [a,c) is a subset of O_1, [c,d) is a subset of O_2 etc. Since B is contained in an open set B should we contained in a neighbourhood of some point.
 
Utilite said:
But since our interval is covered by open sets some neighbourhood of each point is a subset of an open set. [a,c) is a subset of O_1, [c,d) is a subset of O_2 etc. Since B is contained in an open set B should we contained in a neighbourhood of some point.

b is not a member of [a,b), so an open cover of [a,b) doesn't have to contain any sets which contain b.
 
pasmith said:
b is not a member of [a,b), so an open cover of [a,b) doesn't have to contain any sets which contain b.
No but i am talking about [a,b] b is a member of an open set on an open cover of [a,b]. I don't know if this proves something but my argument seems valid, i am just finding a union of neighbourhoods that cover [a,b].
 
[a+r_1,a+r_1+r_2) isn't an open set with respect to the topology of [a,b].
 
The Bill said:
[a+r_1,a+r_1+r_2) isn't an open set with respect to the topology of [a,b].
(a+r_1-r_2,a+r_1+r_2) is in an open set i am just ignoring the unnecessary part
 
  • #10
Utilite said:
But since our interval is covered by open sets some neighbourhood of each point is a subset of an open set. [a,c) is a subset of O_1, [c,d) is a subset of O_2 etc. Since B is contained in an open set B should we contained in a neighbourhood of some point.

Utilite said:
No but i am talking about [a,b] b is a member of an open set on an open cover of [a,b]. I don't know if this proves something but my argument seems valid, i am just finding a union of neighbourhoods that cover [a,b].

Well yes: an open cover of [a,b] must contain a set U such that (b - \epsilon, b] \subset U for some \epsilon > 0.

Here is a proof of compactness of [a,b] which explicitly uses the least upper bound axiom:

Let \mathcal{U} be an open cover of [a,b] and define P \subset [a,b] such that x \in P if and only if [a,x] is covered by a finite subcollection of \mathcal{U}. Our aim is to show that b \in P.

Observe that if x \in P then [a,x]\subset P.

Now a \in P as [a,a] = \{a\} is covered by any set in \mathcal{U} which contains a, and by definition b is an upper bound for P. Hence s = \sup P exists and a < s \leq b. Note that [a, s) \subset P.

Now s \in [a,b] so there exists a U \in \mathcal{U} such that s \in U. If s < b then by openness of U there exists a \delta > 0 such that (s - \delta,s + \delta) \subset U. But then [a,s + \frac12\delta] = [a,s - \frac12\delta] \cup (s-\delta,s+\frac12\delta] is covered by a finite subcollection of \mathcal{U} so s < s + \frac12 \delta \in P. This is a contradiction.

Thus s = b and by openness of U there exists an \epsilon > 0 such that (b - \epsilon,b] \subset U. This together with the finite subcollection which covers [a, b - \frac12 \epsilon] forms a finite subcover of [a,b] as required.

Note that starting from a we could get arbitrarily close to b using only a finite number of open sets, but to actually reach b we had to use a set which contained b.
 
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