Help on Fredholm Eqn of the First Kind

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Steve Zissou
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around solving the Fredholm equation of the first kind, particularly focusing on the relationship between the functions g(s) and f(t) through an integral involving a kernel K(t,s). Participants explore various methods, including Fourier and Laplace transforms, to derive f from g, while addressing issues related to the formulation and assumptions of the equations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that if the kernel K can be expressed as K(t,s) = K(t-s), then f(t) can be derived using the Fourier transform of g(s).
  • Others argue that the condition K(t,s) = K(t-s) is insufficient for applying the Fourier transform method, emphasizing the need for integration limits to be ±∞.
  • A participant suggests a numerical approach using quadrature methods, framing the problem as a linear algebra issue.
  • One participant introduces a change of variable, t = e^{\omega u/2}, to reformulate the integral and considers the inverse Laplace transform of g to find f.
  • Another participant points out that the original formulation of g(s) as a constant leads to an ill-formed equation, suggesting that if g is constant, there could be infinitely many solutions for f.
  • A later reply discusses the difficulty of finding general solutions to integral equations and proposes assuming a specific form for f(t,s) to facilitate the use of the Laplace transform.
  • Another participant mentions the possibility of using the Mellin transform, noting that generalizing g(s) to g(s,y) could lead to different solutions, but expresses uncertainty about the validity of this approach.
  • One participant suggests a change of variable to eliminate the t factor and proposes a potential solution involving a series expansion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of various mathematical methods to solve the Fredholm equation, with no consensus reached on a definitive approach or solution. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best method to derive f from g.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations related to the assumptions made about the kernel K and the integration limits, as well as the potential for multiple solutions depending on the formulation of g(s).

Steve Zissou
Messages
75
Reaction score
4
Hello humans,
Can you offer advice on the following situation?
[itex]g(s)=\int_{a}^{b}K(t,s)f(t)dt[/itex]
However I understand that if K can be expressed as
[itex]K(t,s)=K(t-s)[/itex]
then we can say
[itex]f(t)=\mathcal{F}^{-1}\left [ \frac{\mathcal{F}[g(t)]}{\mathcal{F}[K(t)]} \right ][/itex]
Where the fancy F is Fourier, natch. Although I am fuzzy on what happened to a and b. Anyway, in my case, my function looks like this:
[itex]g(s)=\int_{0}^{\infty}t f(t)dt[/itex]
Can you offer any tips, advice, et cetera?
Thanks
 
Physics news on Phys.org
By the way the idea here is to solve for f, knowing g.
Thanks
 
Steve Zissou said:
Hello humans,
Can you offer advice on the following situation?
[itex]g(s)=\int_{a}^{b}K(t,s)f(t)dt[/itex]
However I understand that if K can be expressed as
[itex]K(t,s)=K(t-s)[/itex]
then we can say
[itex]f(t)=\mathcal{F}^{-1}\left [ \frac{\mathcal{F}[g(t)]}{\mathcal{F}[K(t)]} \right ][/itex]
Where the fancy F is Fourier, natch. Although I am fuzzy on what happened to a and b. Anyway, in my case, my function looks like this:
[itex]g(s)=\int_{0}^{\infty}t f(t)dt[/itex]
Can you offer any tips, advice, et cetera?
Thanks

K(t,s) = K(t-s) is not a good enough condition to be able to use the Fourier transform method to solve the equation. Your integration limits also have to be [itex]\pm \infty[/itex].

You could solve the equation numerically using quadrature methods, since then it's basically a linear algebra problem [itex]\mathbf{g} = K\mathbf{f}[/itex].
 
Thanks man. I appreciate it.
 
followup:
What if we say
[itex]t=e^{\omega u/2}[/itex], so [itex]dt=\frac{\omega}{2}e^{\omega u/2}du[/itex]
and then
[itex]g=\int_{0}^{\infty}\frac{\omega}{2}e^{\omega u}f(u)du[/itex]
which means just taking the inverse Laplace transform of g in order to get f?
Just an idea?
 
Steve Zissou said:
followup:
What if we say
[itex]t=e^{\omega u/2}[/itex], so [itex]dt=\frac{\omega}{2}e^{\omega u/2}du[/itex]
and then
[itex]g=\int_{0}^{\infty}\frac{\omega}{2}e^{\omega u}f(u)du[/itex]
which means just taking the inverse Laplace transform of g in order to get f?
Just an idea?

I overlooked the part of your original post where you said your equation was

[tex]g(s) = \int_0^\infty dt~t f(t).[/tex]

Unless g(s) happens to be a constant, that is an ill-formed equation. The integration kernel does not depend on s, so the integral is a constant. If g is constant, you can have infinitely many solutions for f.
 
Good point, you're right, in the interest of expedience I haven't written it right. The real problem looks like this:
[itex]g(s)=\int_{0}^{\infty}tf(t,s)dt[/itex]
I know g, I am trying to find f.
 
Last edited:
Hm, well, general solutions to integral equations are hard to come by. You can't apply the Laplace transform as is, for instance, since it will only decouple the integrand if the upper limit is s. You could try, for example, assuming that [itex]f(t,s) = \tilde{f}(s-t)\Theta(s-t)[/itex], where Theta is a Heaviside side function. Then your equation would be of the form

[tex]g(s) = \int_0^s dt~t \tilde{f}(s-t),[/tex]

and the Laplace transform would factor the integral for you:

[tex]\mathcal L g(u) = \frac{\mathcal L f(u)}{u},[/tex]
which you could then inverse Laplace transform. However, since you have to assume a particular form of the solution here, it might not be general, or perhaps the inverse transform won't exist, etc.

Another possibility is to consider the Mellin transform. The Mellin transform of a function f(x) is

[tex]\varphi(y) = \int_0^\infty dx x^{y-1} f(x).[/tex]
(it's actually related to the Laplace transform by a change of variables). This is almost the form of your equation, if your g were g(s,y=2). If you can choose a suitable generalization of g(s) to some g(s,y), then the solution to

[tex]g(s,y) = \int_0^\infty dt~t^{y-1} f(t,s)[/tex]
would simply be the inverse Mellin transform of g:

[tex]f(t,s) = \frac{1}{2\pi i}\mathcal M^{-1}[g(s,y)](t) = \int_{c-i\infty}^{c+i\infty} dy t^{-y} g(s,y).[/tex]

(see the wikipedia page for the Mellin transform definition and what the inverse equation means)

But I'm not sure if you can really get the f(t,s) that you actually want out of that solution.

Another cause for concern that I have with this approach is that there are effectively infinitely many ways you might generalize g(s) to g(s,y) such that g(s,2) is the g(s) you're starting with. I don't know if that means there are infinitely many solutions, or if some solutions just won't work (e.g., the inverse Mellin transform doesn't exist because your g doesn't satisfy the Mellin inversion theorem requirements), or something else.
 
Last edited:
My immediate reaction is to get rid of the t factor by change of variable, u = t2, f(t) = 2h(u).
If g(s) can be written as Ʃans-n, n > 0, then there's a solution h(u, s) = e-usƩanun-1/(n-1)! (the details may be wrong).
Given any solution h = h(u, s), h + k(u,s) is also a solution iff ∫0k(u,s)du is identically 0.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
4K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
Replies
2
Views
2K