Help with Early Welsh & Middle English

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around learning Early Welsh and Middle English, focusing on resources, challenges, and motivations for studying these languages. Participants share their experiences and seek recommendations for books and dictionaries that can aid in understanding these historical languages.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses a desire to learn Mid Welsh primarily for reading purposes and seeks better resources than those currently available.
  • Another suggests William Owen's 2-volume dictionary from 1803, although they are unsure of its relevance to early Welsh.
  • Concerns are raised about the accuracy and ideological biases in Owen's work, noting its historical significance despite its flaws.
  • Several participants mention reading "The Mabinogion" and share their impressions of its charm and relevance to their studies.
  • Some participants question the practicality of learning Welsh, particularly older forms, and express skepticism about its contemporary usage.
  • There is a discussion about the rarity of Welsh monoglots in modern times and the challenges of using Welsh in daily life.
  • One participant emphasizes the importance of recognizing historical words and phrases that appear in modern texts, suggesting that understanding older forms can enhance comprehension of contemporary works.
  • Resources for learning modern Welsh are recommended as a starting point for those interested in historical forms of the language.
  • Participants share links to language learning communities and dictionaries that may assist in their studies.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion reflects a mix of agreement on the value of learning these languages and disagreement on their current relevance and practicality. Some participants are enthusiastic about the historical context, while others express skepticism about the necessity of learning older forms of Welsh.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the challenges of finding comprehensive dictionaries and the complexities of understanding historical names and places referenced in texts. There is also mention of the ideological biases in historical resources, which may affect their reliability.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for language learners interested in historical linguistics, literature enthusiasts exploring Welsh and Middle English texts, and those seeking resources for studying lesser-known languages.

Evo
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I'm trying to learn Mid Welsh because I am running into it more and more.

I've just started reading "An introduction to early Welsh". http://www.archive.org/stream/introductiontoea00strauoft#page/4/mode/2up

I was wondering if anyone knew of other books that might be better. I don't need to speak it, just read it.

I've also been improving on my Middle English, but the online dictionaries I've found are not complete. And just between different authors you almost need, at times, an author to author dictionary. :bugeye:

Any suggestions?
 
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arildno said:
Hmm..
What about William Owen's 2-volume dictionary from 1803?
Not sure it's about early Welsh, though..
http://books.google.com/books?q=editions:BCUL1094788459&id=VyQ-AAAAcAAJ&hl=no&as_brr=1
Thank you Arildno! I also checked the Google English and the book is not in the same order and the English lacks the table of contents and the alphabet, etc... or it's been placed somewhere else within the book, so your version is much better.
 
It seems that William Owen was bent upon "proving" the relatedness of Welsh to the human "mother tongue".
Thus, he is guilty of a number of etymological, grammatical and orthographical errors.
However, according to this biography, the book was the staple work of the 19th century, even after his ideological flaws had been exposed.
So, it must have SOME value, I think.
http://wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/s-PUGH-OWE-1759.html
 
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Welsh? As in from Wales? UK, Wales?

Do people still speak it in real life?
 
  • #10
I want to learn Welsh that was spoken around the 12th to 14th century.
 
  • #11
Evo said:
I want to learn Welsh that was spoken around the 12th to 14th century.

21st century Welsh is dead, I'm curious why you'd want to learn such a thing?
 
  • #12
JaredJames said:
21st century Welsh is dead, I'm curious why you'd want to learn such a thing?
I'm reading a couple of books which keep referencing tales written in mid-Welsh, and the authors will say it's hard to determine accuracy because this person or this place was called by (long list of weird names) and it's not clear if they are the same person or place. So I am going backwards to read the books that the newer books are basing information on, and trying to get a clearer understanding of the language, since the old words keep popping up.

Latin is dead too, but it's still good to be able to read it. Same with Middle & Old English.

Don't tell me you don't read Welsh.

Mae Gramadeg Cymraeg Canol yn gyfrol anhepgor i fyfyrwyr sydd yn astudio llenyddiaeth Gymraeg yr Oesoedd Canol. Yn y llyfr hwn, ceir braslun o ramadeg Cymraeg y cyfnod canol, sef o'r ddeuddegfed hyd at y bedwaredd ganrif ar ddeg. Fe'i seiliwyd ar weithiau'r Cynfeirdd a'r Gogynfeirdd, ac yn arbennig ar y gweithiau rhyddiaith, yn chwedlau, cyfreithiau, gweithiau hanesyddol a chrefyddol a berthyn i'n cyfnod hwnnw.

How did you people make this stuff up? Never hear that "less is more"?
 
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  • #13
Evo said:
Latin is dead too, but it's still good to be able to read it. Same with Middle & Old English.

I wish I shared your enthusiasm, but having lived in a country where a dying language exists and is continuously pushed I cannot say I feel the same.

Latin crops up in lots of places, welsh only ever finds its way into things like road signs. All welsh road signs are twice as big to include the translation - go government spending!
Don't tell me you don't read Welsh.

I know a few words and phrases, but nothing substantial. Certainly not enough to be useful.

It's only the hardcore Welshies (our equivalent of America's south 'stereotype' - but North and West Wales) that keep using it (teachers excluded).
 
  • #14
Evo said:
I'm reading a couple of books which keep referencing tales written in mid-Welsh, and the authors will say it's hard to determine accuracy because this person or this place was called by (long list of weird names) and it's not clear if they are the same person or place. So I am going backwards to read the books that the newer books are basing information on, and trying to get a clearer understanding of the language, since the old words keep popping up.

Latin is dead too, but it's still good to be able to read it. Same with Middle & Old English.

Don't tell me you don't read Welsh.
Besides, it is possibly still a (very) few adult monoglots around, as evidenced in this message board comment from 2008:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080728120438AA0B7c3
 
  • #15
arildno said:
Besides, it is possibly still a (very) few adult monoglots around, as evidenced in this message board comment from 2008:

You do find them in the extreme West and North of Wales. But they are rare.

Modern life just doesn't lend itself to only speaking Welsh.
 
  • #16
I don't intend to be able to speak it, just enough to recognize what a word means. I am looking fo some sources of help.
 
  • #17
JaredJames said:
You do find them in the extreme West and North of Wales. But they are rare.

Modern life just doesn't lend itself to only speaking Welsh.

And possibly, in..Patagonia? :smile:
 
  • #18
I skimmed through your MIT link and the majority of words are identical to modern Welsh. There are a few which are slightly different, but they are still recognisable.

I'd recommend you check out modern Welsh resources as a start to familiarise yourself with the language and that will allow you to at least get a ball park idea of words you find and know where to go from there.
 
  • #19
Penn, ysgwyddau, coesau, traed, coesau, traed
Penn, ysgwyddau, coesau, traed, coesau, traed
a llygaid, clustiau, trwyn a cheg
Penn, ysgwyddau, coesau, traed, coesau, traed

Head, shoulders, knees and toes - the Welsh version - it's things like this that will help you recognise the Welsh. If you look through your links you'll see some of these words pop up and they're the same as modern Welsh.
 
  • #20
Evo said:
I don't intend to be able to speak it, just enough to recognize what a word means.
And why not, really?

There are probably lots of interesting historical documents that no one has bothered to translate into modern English from Welsh, since the specialists studying them have learned the language anyway.

Just like a substantial amount of Latin texts never have been translated.

Go, go, Evo!
:smile:
 
  • #23
I am unsure of what you mean by Early Welsh?

Welsh is at least as old as Latin, it's roots go back to the pre Roman times.

Middle English is usually taken as the language of Chaucer ca1300s and 1400s

Owen Glendower was a Welsh rebel leader about this time so there is much lore about him.

So by Early Welsh do you mean the Welsh contemporaneous with Middle English or earlier?
 
  • #24
Studiot said:
I am unsure of what you mean by Early Welsh?

Welsh is at least as old as Latin, it's roots go back to the pre Roman times.

Middle English is usually taken as the language of Chaucer ca1300s and 1400s

Owen Glendower was a Welsh rebel leader about this time so there is much lore about him.

So by Early Welsh do you mean the Welsh contemporaneous with Middle English or earlier?
Yes, as I mentioned earlier the period I need help with is from the 12th to 14th century. I've been using this book.

http://www.archive.org/stream/introductiontoea00strauoft#page/x/mode/2up
 
  • #26
wolram said:
Would this be of any help,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Triads?
oooh, thanks Wolram. One of my books mentions a lot of the triads, like the "Three mighty Swineherds", but I did not know the source of all of these references.
 
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