Help with Weinberg p. 72 -- time dt for a photon to travel a distance d⃗x

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a specific equation from Weinberg's "Gravitation and Cosmology" regarding the time interval ##dt## for a photon traveling a distance ##d\vec{x}##. Participants explore the implications of the quadratic equation presented by Weinberg and the justification for choosing the negative square root in the solution.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about why Weinberg uses the negative square root in the quadratic equation for ##dt##, questioning the justification given the generality of the metric ##g_{μν}##.
  • Another participant points out that the "##\pm##" in the solution indicates two possible directions for light travel, suggesting that one direction is arbitrarily chosen.
  • Some participants note that the coordinate time does not necessarily represent a physical time difference, especially in cases involving changing spatial coordinates.
  • There is a suggestion that the exercise may be intended to illustrate the relationship between the metric and connection in general relativity.
  • Concerns are raised about the physical meaning of computing the differential of an arbitrarily chosen timelike coordinate.
  • Participants discuss the implications of the metric components, particularly the role of ##g_{i0}## and ##g_{00}## in determining the sign of the square root.
  • One participant mentions the potential for confusion in Weinberg's text and suggests considering alternative textbooks for clarity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the justification for the choice of the negative square root or the physical interpretation of the results. Multiple competing views remain regarding the implications of the metric and the meaning of coordinate time.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight that the discussion is limited by the complexity of the metric and the arbitrary nature of coordinate choices in general relativity. There are also unresolved questions about the physical significance of the calculations presented.

  • #31
Thanks a lot strangerep. The decomposition appears to be ##A = VDV^{-1}##, not ##VDV^T##, so it doesn't quite match up with our equation ##g=b^T\eta b##. Of course, ##A^{-1}=A^T## for orthogonal matrices, but is ##b## orthogonal?*

It is interesing to note that the definition of a Lorentz transformation is ##Λ^T\eta Λ=\eta## so we can see that when ##g=\eta## then ##b=Λ##, which does agree with the known fact that b is only defined up to a Lorentz transformation.

I'll try to tidy this up ... I think it still isn't clear enough to me ... but it does seem that Weinberg made a little bit of a jump here.

*Edit: Yes. Since g is symmetric, in fact ##g=VDV^T## where D is the diagonal matrix of eigenvalues of g, and V is the matrix of g's [orthogonal] eigenvectors. But our equation is ##g=b^T\eta b##, so ##b=V^T##. And again here it's obvious that b (or V) is valid up to a Lorentz transformation because ##Λ^T\eta Λ=\eta##.

Again many thanks. Your last post really helped me crack this.
 
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  • #32
Kostik said:
The decomposition appears to be ##A = VDV^{-1}##, not ##VDV^T##, so it doesn't quite match up with our equation ##g=b^T\eta b##. Of course, ##A^{-1}=A^T## for orthogonal matrices, but is ##b## orthogonal?*
As you note in your edit, ##A = VDV^T## is correct if ##g## is real symmetric. Additional discussion here.

[...] it does seem that Weinberg made a little bit of a jump here.
Yes -- that's an example of what I meant when I said that Weinberg tends to be more suitable as an advanced text. He requires rather more of his readers, and sometimes this isn't obvious -- as in the present case.
 
  • #33
strangerep said:
It's just an application of eigendecomposition, i.e.,$$A ~=~ V D V^T ~,$$where ##D## is diagonal (with entries being the eigenvalues of ##A##), and the columns of ##V## are the eigenvectors of a (real, symmetric) matrix ##A##. In our case: $$g ~=~ b \eta b^T ~,$$ and the "constructive" solution for ##b## is obtained by finding eigenvectors of ##g##.
Note that in general, ##~g ~=~ b \eta b^T ~## is not an eigendecomposition of ##g##. The diagonal elements of ##\eta## are not, in general, the eigenvalues of ##g## and the columns of ##b## are not, in general, eigenvectors of ##g## .

As an example, suppose ##g =
\left( \begin{array}{cc}
7 & 4 \\
4 & 1 \\
\end{array} \right)##.

Then you can show that ##g = b \eta b^T## where ##\eta =
\left( \begin{array}{cc}
-1 &0 \\
0 & 1 \\
\end{array} \right)## and ##b =
\left( \begin{array}{cc}
3 & 4 \\
0 & 1 \\
\end{array} \right)##

But the eigendecomposition of ##g## is ##g = VDV^T ## where ##V =
\left( \begin{array}{cc}
1/\sqrt{5} &2/\sqrt{5} \\
-2/\sqrt{5} & 1/\sqrt{5} \\
\end{array} \right)## and ##D =
\left( \begin{array}{cc}
-1 &0 \\
0 & 9 \\
\end{array} \right)##
 
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  • #34
TSny said:
Note that in general, ##~g ~=~ b \eta b^T ~## is not an eigendecomposition of ##g##. [...]
Heh, I was wondering whether someone would mention that.

In GR, the equivalence principle motivates an assumption that we have a metric field with signature (-,+,+,+) at each point of spacetime. Indeed, Weinberg actually starts from ##\eta## and transforms to ##g## -- see p71. His ##b##'s are then also expressed as coord transformation coefficients -- see eqn(3.2.13).

IOW, we're not really starting from an arbitrary ##g##, but one with the right eigenvalues.
 
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  • #35
Strangerep, I agree. Weinberg's discussion starts from the equivalence principle. This implies that (3.2.14) must have a solution where the ##b##'s are associated with the coordinate transformation as in (3.2.13).

Still, the eigenvalues of ##g(X)## need not be the diagonal elements of ##\eta##.

But, as you say, you can't just start from any symmetric matrix ##g##. For example, taking the determinant of each side of (3.2.14) requires that the determinant of ##g## be negative.
 
  • #36
The EP just says that you can, at any point ##x_0## in spacetime always find local coordinates in which ##g_{\mu \nu}(x_0)=\eta_{\mu \nu}##. This implies that the symmetric matrix at each point must have 1 negative and 3 positive eigenvalues (Sylvester's theorem).
 
  • #37
Kostik said:
Weinberg starts this discussion in the middle of p. 72 by saying "The values of the metric tensor ##g_{\mu\nu}## and the affine connection ##Γ^\lambda_{\mu\nu}## at a point X in an arbitrary coordinate system ##x^\mu## PROVIDE ENOUGH INFORMATION TO DETERMINE THE LOCALLY INERTIAL COORDINATES ##\xi^\alpha## in a neighborhood of X." *This* is what I am not yet convinced of.

Thanks again for any help.
Weinberg’s statement is a provable statement. Let x = 0 be the point in question, and define new coordinates y^{\mu} by
x^{\mu} = A^{\mu}{}_{\alpha}y^{\alpha} - \frac{1}{4} A^{\mu}{}_{\tau}B^{\tau}{}_{\alpha \beta}y^{\alpha}y^{\beta} , \ \ \ \ \ (1) where A^{\mu}{}_{\alpha} and B^{\tau}{}_{\alpha \beta} = B^{\tau}{}_{\beta \alpha} are constants to be determined from reasonable requirements. At x = 0, any rank-2 tensor g_{\mu\nu}(x) will therefore have the following transformation law \bar{g}_{\alpha\beta}(0) = A^{\mu}{}_{\alpha} \ g_{\mu\nu}(0) \ A^{\nu}{}_{\beta} . \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ (2) In matrix form, (2) reads \bar{g} = A^{T} \ g \ A . \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ (3)

If g_{\mu\nu}(x) is a metric tensor on some differentiable manifold M^{n} then: (I) it must be symmetric, i.e., g_{\mu\nu}(x) = g_{\nu\mu}(x). And, more importantly: (II) In order to model our spacetime by an equivalent class of pairs (M^{n} , g_{\mu\nu}), g_{\mu\nu} must be a non-degenerate metric of Lorentz signature. (bellow I will be using the mostly minus signature).
Now,
(I) \Rightarrow \ \exists R \in O(n) such that R^{T}gR = G is diagonal, and
(II) \Rightarrow \ G = \mbox{diag}(\lambda_{0}^{2}, - \lambda_{1}^{2}, \cdots , - \lambda_{n-1}^{2}), where \lambda_{r} \neq 0 \ \forall r.
So, we have
R^{T} \ g \ R = \mbox{diag}(\lambda_{0}^{2}, -\lambda_{1}^{2}, -\lambda_{2}^{2} ,\cdots , -\lambda_{n-1}^{2}) . \ \ \ \ \ (4) Define the matrix D = \mbox{diag}(1/\lambda_{0},1/\lambda_{1}, \cdots , 1/\lambda_{n-1}), and sandwich (4) by D to obtain
DR^{T} \ g \ RD = \mbox{diag}(1, -1, -1, \cdots , -1) . Thus (RD)^{T} \ g \ (RD) = \eta . \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ (5) However, for any \Lambda \in SO(1,n-1) , we also have (RD \Lambda )^{T} \ g \ (RD \Lambda ) = \Lambda^{T} \eta \Lambda = \eta . So, we can set A^{\mu}{}_{\alpha} = (RD)^{\mu}{}_{\alpha} \ \ \mbox{mod} \ \Lambda \in SO(1,n-1) . \ \ \ \ \ \ (6) Using the choice (6) together with (5), equation (2) or (3) gives us our first desired result, that is \bar{g}_{\alpha \beta}(0) = A^{\mu}{}_{\alpha} \ g_{\mu\nu}(0) \ A^{\nu}{}_{\beta} = \eta_{\alpha\beta} . \ \ \ \ \ \ (7)
The fact that the matrix (RD) determines A up to Lorentz transformations can also be deduced from parameter-counting: there are n^{2} parameters in A, n parameters in D and \frac{1}{2}n(n-1) parameters in the O(n) matrix R. This leaves us with the n^{2} - [\frac{1}{2}n(n-1) + n] = \frac{1}{2}n(n-1) free parameters needed for a Lorentz transformation.
To complete the proof of Weinberg’s statement, we need to choose the constants B^{\mu}{}_{\alpha\beta} so that, together with the choice (6) for A^{\mu}{}_{\alpha}, the system y, as defined in (1), becomes locally inertial system. This requires a bit of algebra which I will describe them for you. Differentiating the transformation law \bar{g}_{\alpha\beta}(y) = \frac{\partial x^{\mu}}{\partial y^{\alpha}} \frac{\partial x^{\nu}}{\partial y^{\beta}} g_{\mu\nu}(x) , with respect to y^{\gamma}, we get at x = 0
\frac{\partial \bar{g}_{\alpha\beta}}{\partial y^{\gamma}}(0) = T_{\alpha\beta\gamma}(0) - \frac{1}{2}\left(A^{\mu}{}_{\alpha}g_{\mu\nu}(0) A^{\nu}{}_{\tau}\right) B^{\tau}{}_{\beta\gamma} - \frac{1}{2} \left(A^{\mu}{}_{\tau}g_{\mu\nu}(0)A^{\nu}{}_{\beta}\right) B^{\tau}{}_{\alpha\gamma} , \ \ (8)
where we have defined the object T_{\alpha\beta\gamma}(0) \equiv A^{\mu}{}_{\alpha}A^{\nu}{}_{\beta}A^{\rho}{}_{\gamma} \frac{\partial g_{\mu\nu}}{\partial x^{\rho}}(0) . \ \ \ \ (9)
Using our first result (7), we find
\frac{\partial \bar{g}_{\alpha\beta}}{\partial y^{\gamma}}(0) = T_{\alpha\beta\gamma}(0) - \frac{1}{2} (B_{\alpha\beta\gamma} + B_{\beta\alpha\gamma}) . \ \ \ \ (8')
So, to complete the proof we need to solve the following equation for B_{\alpha\beta\gamma}
T_{\alpha\beta\gamma} = \frac{1}{2}\left(B_{\alpha\beta\gamma} + B_{\beta\alpha\gamma}\right) . \ \ \ (10)
To do this, write another 2 copy of (10) using the permutation (\alpha\beta\gamma) \to (\gamma\alpha\beta) \to (\beta\gamma\alpha), then add the first two and subtract the third one. Then, due to B_{\alpha\beta\gamma} = B_{\alpha\gamma\beta}, you obtain the final result
B_{\alpha\beta\gamma} = T_{\alpha\beta\gamma}(0) + T_{\gamma\alpha\beta} (0) - T_{\beta\gamma\alpha}(0) , with T(0) as defined by (9).
So, from the values of g_{\mu\nu}(0) and \partial g (0) \sim \Gamma (0) we were able to determine (up to Lorentz transformation) the constants A and B that are needed to make the y-system locally inertial.
 
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