Helping Unprepared Students: The Ironies and Challenges

[WannabeNewton]

Just ignore those kinds of comments Medgirl: they clearly serve no helpful purpose and are just flung out at an innocent student asking for help with the sole purpose of ego inflation.

Here's an example of such a comment (see post #2): https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=731174

Not only is that hurtful to the OP but also completely useless in every possible way.

 

[Medgirl314]

My thoughts exactly.

Berkeman handled it quite well though.

It's nice viewing many different categories on PF, you get to see who the regulars are, which ones are helpful AND nice, and which ones help for the purpose of inflating their ego. Thanks for being one of the helpful AND nice ones! I found that evo,PhantomJay, and Mark44 are the same way.

 

[brmath]

That's true. Those were my thoughts too,brmath. I wish we had more Homework Helpers with your attitude!

My thought it that just POSTING a question means admitting you don't know everything, or at least that you don;t know the concept very well, so there isn't a need for people to point that out. Especially when the OP is working hard at the problem and not just seeking answers.

Well, my attitude is shaped by my knowledge that there are some areas in which I am totally deficient, so who am I to get arrogant. Maybe it is worth suggesting in the facs or something that all of us are not good at something, so we should be patient with those who are having trouble with math.

I think an OP who is visibly trying is usually treated pretty well. Some of them don't seem to be visibly trying, but that doesn't necessarily imply they are goofing off. Sometimes they don't understand the rules. Sometimes they are just panic stricken because they don't know where to start.

If we want them to at least start, maybe we should ask a leading question -- like, can you define compact set? (or whatever terminology may be involved). Then at least they are started.

I did give up on one student who couldn't tell me whether there was any relationship between the tangent to a circle and its radius to that point. And further he had made it clear he wanted me to do the problem. But what was he doing in multivariate calculus if he didn't know any high school geometry?

 

[Medgirl314]

I agree. I think those OPs usually are treated pretty well, too, unless they have a couple slightly impatient regulars trying to help them. I like your idea of asking leading questions. That seems much better than deleting the thread, to me. :) But I'm sure it gets annoying for everyone else when some students post homework questions without showing their work. I do think that maybe we should have a different section for non-homework problems,because I and a few others I have seen on this forum are doing EXTRA work and they already KNOW the answer, but they need an in-depth explanation to truly understand how to get there. Does that make sense?

 

[Borek]

I do think that maybe we should have a different section for non-homework problems,because I and a few others I have seen on this forum are doing EXTRA work and they already KNOW the answer, but they need an in-depth explanation to truly understand how to get there. Does that make sense?

Basically that's what the sections outside of Science Education are for. No problem with discussing there problems that require in-depth explanation.

Yes, sometimes classifying a problem as a profound one and worth further discussion or as a trivial homework depends on the perspective and is a matter of personal opinion. But as long as everyone involved is aware of that it shouldn't generate any issues.

 

[dlgoff]

I do think that maybe we should have a different section for non-homework problems,because I and a few others I have seen on this forum are doing EXTRA work and they already KNOW the answer, but they need an in-depth explanation to truly understand how to get there. Does that make sense?

That's why there are the other forums. If it's not homework, the question can be asked as such.

Edit: You're too fast Borek

 

[Medgirl314]

Oh, okay! I was somewhat confused because I read on other threads that any questions resembling homework MUST be asked in the homework forum, even if they're not assigned. Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[Borek]

Oh, okay! I was somewhat confused because I read on other threads that any questions resembling homework MUST be asked in the homework forum, even if they're not assigned. Thanks for clearing that up!

As explained earlier - sometimes what counts as a HW or HWlike question is a matter of a personal opinion. But if you will post in the technical forum, following the rules of the HW forum (mainly explaining precisely what it is about and showing your effort) and you will add a comment that you are not interested just in the solution, but in some details of the method/theorems used/blahblah, you would have to be extremely unlucky and meet a Mentor with a headache/toothache/wifeache/whatever to get smashed for your post.

 

[Medgirl314]

You're funny. Okay, thanks!

 

[Lisa!]

As explained earlier - sometimes what counts as a HW or HWlike question is a matter of a personal opinion. But if you will post in the technical forum, following the rules of the HW forum (mainly explaining precisely what it is about and showing your effort) and you will add a comment that you are not interested just in the solution, but in some details of the method/theorems used/blahblah, you would have to be extremely unlucky and meet a Mentor with a headache/toothache/wifeache/whatever to get smashed for your post.

wifeache

PS: It would be very funny if i'd get smashed for this post

 

[SteamKing]

... you would have to be extremely unlucky and meet a Mentor with a headache/toothache/wifeache/whatever to get smashed for your post.

Happy wife, happy life, Borek. Do the Poles have a similar saying?

 

[Borek]

Happy wife, happy life, Borek. Do the Poles have a similar saying?

We don't need a saying, we just know it.

 

[dlgoff]

We don't need a saying, we just know it.

I think I know why.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmSzAeO76es

 

[Alpharup]

I have read a few posts out here and would like to give my opinion. If you teach someone about RLC circuits, he or she must at least know the notations ( "at least" here means the least possible knowledge without understanding) in calculus.

He or she should know that dy/dx is the rate of change of y with respect to variable x. The person should also know that if dy/dx=k, then he should be able to express y in terms of k. If a person says that it is not known to him, it is really frustrating given the fact that second order differential equation is solved.

 

[brmath]

I have read a few posts out here and would like to give my opinion. If you teach someone about RLC circuits, he or she must at least know the notations ( "at least" here means the least possible knowledge without understanding) in calculus.

He or she should know that dy/dx is the rate of change of y with respect to variable x. The person should also know that if dy/dx=k, then he should be able to express y in terms of k. If a person says that it is not known to him, it is really frustrating given the fact that second order differential equation is solved.

Yes, students who are totally unprepared for the classes they are in are a problem. It should be the school's problem, but it winds up in our laps when the student asks for help. It is hard to know what to tell them. "Drop this class and study h.s. algebra" does not seem appropriate, although it might be the most accurate.

 

[Mark44]

Yes, students who are totally unprepared for the classes they are in are a problem. It should be the school's problem, but it winds up in our laps when the student asks for help. It is hard to know what to tell them. "Drop this class and study h.s. algebra" does not seem appropriate, although it might be the most accurate.

During the 18 years that I taught math in a community college (a two-year college), I had a handful of students who were so woefully unprepared for the class they were in that I advised them to drop the class and take one of the prereq classes. When I have come across similarly unprepared students here at PF, I didn't advise them to drop the class, but I did recommend that they allot some time reviewing the parts of algebra or whatever where they were having problems.

 

[brmath]

During the 18 years that I taught math in a community college (a two-year college), I had a handful of students who were so woefully unprepared for the class they were in that I advised them to drop the class and take one of the prereq classes. When I have come across similarly unprepared students here at PF, I didn't advise them to drop the class, but I did recommend that they allot some time reviewing the parts of algebra or whatever where they were having problems.

A very sensible message. I wonder how many of them took your advice.