Helping Unprepared Students: The Ironies and Challenges

[HayleySarg]

We are not a paid homework service.

If you're not capable of looking at the forum stickies and figuring out the appropriate way of phrasing a question, then you're probably not barking up the right tree in terms of studies. While I do understand sometimes you can be completely lost, you can at least submit the question in full, describe what it being taught in class, and at the VERY least, write down the key equations that may be helpful.

Doing all of the "pre work" to solving a problem, imho, is worse than doing the problem for them. The most ciritcal part of problem solving is identifying what the problem is. Do I think we should be outright rude? No.

I think there should be some sort of default rejection post, that states something along the lines of "submission incomplete" in much nicer words, that might be ideal. Students who can't help themselves are not going to be fixed here. They can be fixed, in the real world, with hands on professors. I would not treat a student here, as I would in real life. You know so much more when you're the professor, about the student, than we ever will here.

"I have no idea" reads so much differently when it's your top performing student, coming into your office hours the day the problem set was assigned versus "I have no idea" and this is a student that never came to lecture, and is trying to get the HW done the day it's due.

I can't really relate to being ashamed of being wrong. It's not like it's a life or death situation, it's just HW (okay, so maybe it's life and death, but I digress). Being wrong is ... part of learning. I don't really know how to address the fear of being wrong, I've always sucked with confidence.

humor intended.

 

[arildno]

"They're all, mostly so, very shy and intimidated and if they ask for help and you give what you feel is good help and they still don't understand it, mostly I think will not have the courage to come back and say, ". . . ugh, I'm so sorry, I'm kinda' stupid and still don't get it, could you hwlp me a little more?" See, I'm very nervous saying that. I mis-spelled help. That's tough to do. It's embarrassing and I've experienced it myself."
---
We are not here to Save the World, jackmell. Some certainly have pathological degrees of shyness, and no, we do not really have the obligation to Save them, or regard every student who comes into PF as belonging in that sad category.

 

[SteamKing]

Sometimes, like in this thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=718428
it seems the student has grown so dependent on getting HW help that basic mental skills have withered and died.
Posts 2 and 3 in this thread are especially alarming.

 

[AlephZero]

Some people still manage to get their HW done for them without making any effort ...
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=718534

 

[Vanadium 50]

Some people still manage to get their HW done for them without making any effort ...

Please report such posts.

 

[shaltera]

“Don't be in a hurry to condemn because he doesn't do what you do or think as you think or as fast. There was a time when you didn't know what you know today.”

 

[Evo]

“Don't be in a hurry to condemn because he doesn't do what you do or think as you think or as fast. There was a time when you didn't know what you know today.”

Lack of knowledge is not what is being discussed.

 

[phinds]

Please report such posts.

Up to now I have reported any post I noticed where the OP made no effort to show any kind of work and in one set of words or another said "I have no idea how to do this".

BUT ... I noticed today that 2 or 3 posts were of exactly that type and yet moderators had responded to them. Have the rules changed or been relaxed or what?

 

[Borek]

Up to now I have reported any post I noticed where the OP made no effort to show any kind of work and in one set of words or another said "I have no idea how to do this".

BUT ... I noticed today that 2 or 3 posts were of exactly that type and yet moderators had responded to them. Have the rules changed or been relaxed or what?

Can you show which ones? I guess it could be a temporary lack of vigilance.

 

[phinds]

Can you show which ones? I guess it could be a temporary lack of vigilance.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=724016
(on that one I see the Sci Advisor responded only after another, new, member had responded)


https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=724504
HW Helper just pointed out the problem is unclear.

I'm pretty sure there was a 3rd but I can't find it so maybe not.

 

[Borek]

Looks like they were just missed, and once they were answered, there was no sense to delete the content.

But nothing has changed, that's for sure.

 

[phinds]

Looks like they were just missed, and once they were answered, there was no sense to delete the content.

But nothing has changed, that's for sure.

OK, just wanted to make sure. Thanks Borek.

 

[Mandelbroth]

May I complain about something I feel is unfair? Here's the scenario:

A poor helpless student comes here with a problem and says, "I have no idea where to begin" or something like that and the forum rules are "you must show your work to get help".

Well, does anyone see a contradiction there? How can they show their work if they don't have a clue how to start? And what, poor sympathetic me comes along and thinks, "well, I know just what they need" but no, I'll get popped if I "intervene" so like a good worker-bee I say nothing and the Riemann Hypothesis remains unproven.

Alas, I am beset by the ironies in my life.
Jack

Here's a bit on my philosophy on this topic.

I don't think I've ever asked for help on actual coursework or homework before, but when I'm doing problems on my own and it "looks" like a homework problem, I put it in the HW section. There have been times where I didn't see an obvious starting point. One that sticks out in my mind was during a kind of game I played with a friend on another forum to help us get more comfortable with proofs. The thread was here.

I didn't know where to start, so I asked. Clearly, I was lost. However, I could still make an attempt at doing something, even if it was fairly fruitless. If you don't know what to do, then you can try to apply your favorite lemma in your bag of tricks (lately, Gauss' Lemma has been particularly helpful to me, for example). If that doesn't work, I have a routine which has served me well over the past year:

1. Try for another 10-20 minutes
2. Google search the key words of the problem individually to see if anything pops up that might spark an idea
3. Check MathOverflow. Not there? Check it again, because you will inevitably find your answer there 5 minutes after you figure out what to do. If you still can't find it, try Math StackExchange.
4. Google search the full text of the problem
5. Try for another 10-20 minutes, and/or recheck MathOverflow (it's in there, somewhere)
6. Ask PF.

In all honesty, I look up to most of the frequent members of this forum. If I'm asking a question here, I feel like I'm obligated to put a little bit of effort into it, at least for the sake of respect.

What's more, in a somewhat related discussion, I really appreciated micro's four word answer in that thread. The way I see it, it's my problem and not yours. I want to solve it, rather than just read your post and say, "Hmm. That was an interesting proof. I got absolutely nothing out of that, other than the result of the theorem." I want the satisfaction of being able to say, "I proved it," complete with a little snoopy dance in victory. I've been attempting to emulate that style of response lately.

"My road through math is littered with wrong ones."

Amen to that.

Very often, just LISTING the variables explicitly, rather than let them float about in the brain is just the nudge one needs to organize the thoughts..

My physics teacher taught me this last year. As crazy as it sounds, this is an almost surefire way of getting "unstuck."

I've heard that brute force usually works.

Said no one. Ever.

I like the "Feynman Problem Solving Method" myself:

1. Write down the problem.
2. Think really hard.
3. Write down the right answer.

WHOA! I like this method! Why was I unaware of this?

 

[leroyjenkens]

Actually, in some cases, "I have no idea" happens. It happens to me sometimes. I can't think of an example, but I've been in situations where I have no idea where to begin on a problem, and it's not due to laziness, it's just probably me drawing a blank. Sometimes a push in the right direction will help and wouldn't be considered holding their hand. But of course, you can't know when someone IS just being lazy, so I see the dilemma.

 

[dkotschessaa]

Actually, in some cases, "I have no idea" happens. It happens to me sometimes. I can't think of an example, but I've been in situations where I have no idea where to begin on a problem, and it's not due to laziness, it's just probably me drawing a blank. Sometimes a push in the right direction will help and wouldn't be considered holding their hand. But of course, you can't know when someone IS just being lazy, so I see the dilemma.

Easy. If they can't fill out the part of the template that says "Relevant equations" then they are being lazy.

-Dave K

 

[Office_Shredder]

The response to "I don't know what to do" should be look in the section that contains your exercise, and try to apply your favorite theorem from that section. If you haven't done that then the problem isn't that you don't know what to do, it's that you don't want to do it.

 

[Yanick]

Even if you are doing a problem which perhaps makes you to extend the ideas of the chapter in a way that you can't wrap your brain around and get stuck, you can still write a few sentences about your thought process. For example you might say something like, "The chapter covers [topic] and we did [topic] in class last week. This problem probably has something to do with [topic] but I don't see the connection because [reasons]. I'm just stuck and don't know how I can try and apply [topic] to this problem." I know if I were to read something similar to that in a post which didn't show any actual work, I would try and help the person.

I have to agree that there is always something you can write to show that you are at least thinking about the material and trying to learn something. I mean if you are learning how to add vectors and get to a problem which just stumps you completely, you can still write a few sentences which show that you know that you are studying vector manipulation and that you know how to add <1,0> and <1,5> but that this problem is trickier because they threw a curve ball at you.

 

[AlephZero]

Actually, in some cases, "I have no idea" happens. It happens to me sometimes. I can't think of an example, but I've been in situations where I have no idea where to begin on a problem, and it's not due to laziness, it's just probably me drawing a blank.

The problem there is not so much "I don't know how to solve this particular problem" but "I don't know some strategies for solving problems in general".

The HW help forums aren't really aimed at explicitly teaching people general problem solving strategies, except by "immersion" (in the language-learning sense) of being led through it by question and answer.

Maybe schools don't teach problem solving strategies explicitly either, though people like Edward de Bono have put a lot of effort into persuading people that's what they should be doing - and of course he can sell you the best way to do it

 

[brmath]

You know, I think we can start by cutting people some slack. If they are really being lazy, we'll find out fast enough. Hopelessly confused and frustrated is also possible.

I like to give them an answer that would start them off in the right direction. Or ask if they understand the definition of whatever the basic thing is.

Some respond well and begin making progress. Others clearly are hoping to get off with little work, or maybe to get me to do it for them.

I must add, some of the problems people are given are ridiculous and indicate mostly that their professor has no idea how to teach and/or doesn't him/herself understand the material. Wish I could message those people ...

Also, some of the students have no business in whatever the course is, are clearly unprepared, and I wish I knew what to tell them.

 

[ZapperZ]

You know, I think we can start by cutting people some slack. If they are really being lazy, we'll find out fast enough. Hopelessly confused and frustrated is also possible.

I like to give them an answer that would start them off in the right direction. Or ask if they understand the definition of whatever the basic thing is.

Some respond well and begin making progress. Others clearly are hoping to get off with little work, or maybe to get me to do it for them.

I must add, some of the problems people are given are ridiculous and indicate mostly that their professor has no idea how to teach and/or doesn't him/herself understand the material. Wish I could message those people ...

Also, some of the students have no business in whatever the course is, are clearly unprepared, and I wish I knew what to tell them.

I'm all for giving people some slack... IF they have showed at least some attempt at trying to do this themselves, or at the very least, reveal to use what they already know. I have a problem with people who's only words that they type in after giving us the problem are : "I don't know what do to" or "I don't know how to start"! Did they slept through the class to not even know the basic principle being presented? We're not taking about knowing the equation to use here!

I've elaborated on this even more:

https://www.physicsforums.com/blog.php?b=4714

Zz.

 

[brmath]

Hi Zz,

Your blog was very interesting, and points out something I wasn't focusing on, which is that most homework questions are about physics. Since I don't know much physics, I am helping with math homework. So it isn't about whether the student knows the physics, or some physics or any physics. While knowing something about the relevant math is a somewhat parallel problem, it really isn't quite the same.

When all I get is "I don't know where to start", I often ask them to define the terms -- "what is a compact set"? If you don't understand the question, there is no way you are going to get to an answer. Sometimes I'll ask an implication question -- "what kind of surface does this function describe?". Sometimes I'll do the first computation -- " if $f_x$ is 2x + y can you take the next step?" Sometimes I clarify what the question actually is -- that often helps a lot.

I don't think any of this is giving away the store as doing the physics for them might.

If the student is trying to get me to do the problem, that will quickly be evident. If he/she was simply lost or didn't know what to focus on, the first step may set him/her on a good path.

I am also okay with a student who started and took a wrong turn.

What is giving me the most trouble are the students who just plain do not belong in whatever class it is. I remember one who was working on a 2-dim problem - probed for a starting point, asking several increasingly simple questions; but gave up when he/she didn't know anything about the relationship of a tangent line to a circle and the radius to that point.

I recently worked with another who started in the wrong direction, didn't understand why not, and eventually turned out not to understand anything -- was guessing at answers without a scrap of logical thought or insight.

What should I do for students who clearly are misplaced? The best advice would be to drop the class, but I can hardly suggest that.

 

[SteamKing]

What is giving me the most trouble are the students who just plain do not belong in whatever class it is. I remember one who was working on a 2-dim problem - probed for a starting point, asking several increasingly simple questions; but gave up when he/she didn't know anything about the relationship of a tangent line to a circle and the radius to that point.

I recently worked with another who started in the wrong direction, didn't understand why not, and eventually turned out not to understand anything -- was guessing at answers without a scrap of logical thought or insight.

What should I do for students who clearly are misplaced? The best advice would be to drop the class, but I can hardly suggest that.

These are the toughest cases to deal with. Sometimes, I wonder if these students didn't wander into the wrong class by mistake and didn't realize it.

 

[brmath]

These are the toughest cases to deal with. Sometimes, I wonder if these students didn't wander into the wrong class by mistake and didn't realize it.

From my own teaching experience I am aware that instructors often pass students who should fail, due to having learned nothing at all. So, having "passed" calc1 and calc2 they go on to calc3 when their proper placement is maybe college algebra (or high school algebra?). One might ask, "where is their guidance counselor", but that person is probably also eager not to offend.

You can pass calc3 the same way -- get someone else to do your homework, cheat on the tests, etc. I was always a barrier to this approach, which can make you unpopular; but I was there to teach not to socialize. Strangely, I remained popular.

The sad thing is that once the student has absorbed the pain of his/her well deserved failing grade, he/she may go on to major in something more suitable. So I think that failing grades should be awarded when appropriate. Why deprive the world of a good history teacher to produce an incompetent mathematician or physicist?

Re cheating, they are getting better and better at it due to fine cellphone technology. In my last class all but one person gave the same wrong answer to one problem. So I was able to mark all the cheaters down en masse, instead of having to ferret them out one at a time. (Not that I am in the ferreting business -- I think life will deal with them).

But for those who are sincere and trying to learn, we are providing a good service, and I find it a great pleasure.

 

[strangerep]

Re cheating, they are getting better and better at it due to fine cellphone technology.

How? Do you mean in a take-home assignment, or in a closed-book exam?

I have a good and kind friend I grew up with, who is now Head of the Economics Dept at a major university. He told me a story about a girl student who always achieved good results for assignments, etc, etc, and seemed thoroughly interested in his course. But come the (closed-book) exam, she crashed and burned horribly and my friend was quite upset. I didn't know how to tell him that he had simply been played all along by a cheating young girl who knew how to charm naive older men...

Why deprive the world of a good history teacher to produce an incompetent mathematician or physicist?

Indeed, and why deprive the world of a skillful escort to produce an incompetent economist?

 

[brmath]

How? Do you mean in a take-home assignment, or in a closed-book exam?

I have a good and kind friend I grew up with, who is now Head of the Economics Dept at a major university. He told me a story about a girl student who always achieved good results for assignments, etc, etc, and seemed thoroughly interested in his course. But come the (closed-book) exam, she crashed and burned horribly and my friend was quite upset. I didn't know how to tell him that he had simply been played all along by a cheating young girl who knew how to charm naive older men...

Yeah, a closed book exam. It was a very peculiar misunderstanding of the material, so they must have collaborated. It is not impossible they all worked it out together the night before, but seems unlikely they were organized enough to get that many kids together.

The one person who wasn't part of the ring got the problem right.

I had a friend who was approached by a young lady who was clearly failing his class. She told him that she would do "anything" for an A. He suggested she go home and study. No, she said, she meant she would do anything for an A. His second suggestion to study was not kindly recevied and she duly flunked his course.

After the semester was over he checked on her transcript. She had 4 F's and a A.

Just in case you don't know this, men of all ages are susceptible to charming young ladies. Even some who have already been misled several times and ought to have learned some skepticism.

This is balanced by all the women charmed by men who are up to no good.

And so, the world.

 

[Medgirl314]

I feel that "I have no idea where to start" is unacceptable, but "I HAD no idea how to start" is, if followed by a reasonable attempt to solve the problem. What I feel is unreasonable, though, is that some members(not mentors) who have already been to college "help" someone with a basic problem, but insult their knowledge or intelligence while doing so. It's okay to say "I think you missed a step." or, "Here's a link to a similar problem, do you see where you went wrong?" But I don't think it's helpful to say things such as "This isn't even algebra, this is basic arithmetic." or "Maybe you should review basic algebra." or "You'll never succeed in physics if you don't have such basic concepts down." However, this is only some members, some others are extremely helpful.

 

[brmath]

The people who are most insulting are usually the ones who know the least and/or are the least sure of themselves. There will always be people like that. We cannot escape them.

In a better world everyone would be considerate and respectful. But that is not our world.

 

[Medgirl314]

That's true. Those were my thoughts too,brmath. I wish we had more Homework Helpers with your attitude!

My thought it that just POSTING a question means admitting you don't know everything, or at least that you don;t know the concept very well, so there isn't a need for people to point that out. Especially when the OP is working hard at the problem and not just seeking answers.

 

[Mark44]

I feel that "I have no idea where to start" is unacceptable, but "I HAD no idea how to start" is, if followed by a reasonable attempt to solve the problem. What I feel is unreasonable, though, is that some members(not mentors) who have already been to college "help" someone with a basic problem, but insult their knowledge or intelligence while doing so. It's okay to say "I think you missed a step." or, "Here's a link to a similar problem, do you see where you went wrong?" But I don't think it's helpful to say things such as "This isn't even algebra, this is basic arithmetic." or "Maybe you should review basic algebra." or "You'll never succeed in physics if you don't have such basic concepts down." However, this is only some members, some others are extremely helpful.

I disagree with your opinion on what's not helpful. There are way too many students who don't get it that math courses are cumulative, and that teachers expect that a student in course N + 1 should be reasonably competent in the material from course N. A student who can't do arithmetic is going to find it impossible to carry out complicated calculations in algebra or trig or more advanced subjects. I don't find anything wrong with telling such a student to review basic algebra or whatever he or she is having problems with.

 

[Medgirl314]

Ah, I think I may have made a statement that varied slightly from what I actually meant. I agree with your statement, actually. My point was that saying "Here, review this concept" or "It may be a good idea to review basic algebra" can be nice and helpful. But saying something like those comments, but either packaged with an insult or stated rudely, is not helpful.