Hilbert's grand hotel as infinite number of pairs

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Sissoev
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Infinite
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around Hilbert's Grand Hotel problem, specifically considering the concept of pairing infinite sets, such as room/guest pairs and left/right shoe pairs. Participants explore the implications of adding or removing elements from these infinite sets and the nature of infinity in such contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that pairing infinite sets, like left and right shoes, leads to a situation where removing one element results in an unpaired object, suggesting that the sets are no longer infinite.
  • Others argue that removing or adding finite elements to an infinite set does not change its cardinality, maintaining that infinite sets remain infinite regardless of such operations.
  • A participant suggests modeling the hotel as a set of pairs, where guests are represented by integers, and discusses how new guests can be accommodated without breaking the pairing.
  • Some participants challenge the notion that pairing infinite sets can only occur once, asserting that multiple bijections can exist between infinite sets.
  • There are discussions about the implications of moving guests and how it affects the pairing, with some asserting that it does not alter the infinite nature of the sets involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the nature of infinity and the implications of pairing infinite sets. There is no consensus on whether removing or adding elements affects the infinite status of the sets.

Contextual Notes

Participants use the term "pair" in different contexts, leading to potential confusion regarding the mathematical definitions of pairing and set cardinality. The discussion reflects various interpretations of how infinity operates in the context of set theory.

  • #31
Sissoev said:
Left and right as parts of one pair are bound together and you should not be able to create new pair by adding only left or only right part to it.
You really need to get past this notion that the pairing has to be unique. It is keeping you from understanding this concept.
Sissoev said:
An infinite paired set is infinite in number but its parts are limited to each other (each left shoe has as a pair a right shoe, and there are no singles available, otherwise the set wouldn't be called paired set)
This "paired set" idea that you are fixated on is no help to you. You are missing the main idea -- a set is countably infinite if there is a one-to-one mapping between the elements of the set and the set of positive integers. Period.
Sissoev said:
Regardless whether the number is limited or infinite, the pairs in the row are created and cannot be increased by adding only to one side of the pair.
Baloney.
Sissoev said:
One would argue that we don't increase infinity, because its value cannot be increased or decreased by adding or subtracting, but by not taking in account the properties of the paired infinite set we have a moment between the pairings when one of the sets is with number greater than the other.
No, this isn't true. You not grasping the idea that an infinite set is fundamentally different from a finite set.
Sissoev said:
Again, "with number greater than the other" is not correct use for infinity, so we rather call it unpaired number (one of the sides contains unpaired number of shoes). That unpaired number implies limit to both sides when we look at them as pair parts.
Unpaired numbers would be relevant if we were dealing with finite sets, but once we start talking about infinite sets, it doesn't matter in the slightest that there are some numbers that aren't included. What does matter is that we can establish a one-to-one pairing with a countably infinite set (such as the positive integers). In every example I gave, I showed you the pairing.
Sissoev said:
That's why I say that a pairing should occur only once if we don't want to create a paradox.
In Hilbert's case we have complete infinite number of pairs (no singles available) and any adding to one of the sides will break that completeness.
Hence the paradox.
Like pwsnafu said, "we don't care about what you think "should" or "should not" be doable in mathematics."
Sissoev said:
I'm not trying to change mathematics, neither am I challenging your knowledge to prove you wrong.
Don't get frustrated if you cannot answer some of my questions and logical points.
We have answered every one of your questions and have refuted all of your logical points. What is frustrating, is that you are unable to let go of your incorrect ideas about infinite sets, despite being shown that they are faulty.
Sissoev said:
Most probably that is because my points are so lame that you cannot make sense of them :-p
 
Mathematics news on Phys.org
  • #32
The question has been asked and answered (ad infinitum, so to speak). I am closing this thread.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 73 ·
3
Replies
73
Views
5K
  • · Replies 69 ·
3
Replies
69
Views
7K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
Replies
19
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
6K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K