Hodge operator on 4th rank tensor

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of the Hodge operator on a 4th rank tensor, specifically focusing on the properties and computations involving the Hodge dual operator denoted by *. Participants explore the implications of this operator in the context of differential forms and tensor analysis, raising questions about specific calculations and identities.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a computation involving the Hodge dual of a 4th rank tensor and questions the validity of their result, suggesting a potential misunderstanding of the operator's properties.
  • Another participant points out that when acting on a p-form with a Lorentzian signature, the identity *^2 = -(-1)^(p(n-p)) holds, indicating a need for clarity in the original computation.
  • A different participant expresses uncertainty about the definition of a p-form, suggesting that a tensor can only be represented as a p-form if it is antisymmetric, and seeks clarification on the treatment of indices.
  • One participant proposes renaming the indices of the Riemann tensor to simplify the application of the Hodge operator, suggesting that treating it as a 2-form may facilitate the calculations.
  • Another participant provides an identity involving the epsilon tensor and discusses its implications for contracted indices, contributing to the ongoing exploration of the Hodge operator's properties.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the computations involving the Hodge operator, and multiple competing views and interpretations of the identities and properties remain present throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the assumptions made about the properties of tensors and forms, as well as the clarity of the mathematical steps involved in the computations. Some identities and definitions are referenced but not fully resolved.

binbagsss
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I am reading a article that defines a L, R acting Hodge dual denoted by * as:

$$R^{*\alpha \mu \kappa \rho}=\epsilon^{\alpha \mu \nu \lambda}R_{\nu \lambda \kappa \rho},$$

contracting over the first two indices (and similar definition for #*^R^{\alpha \mu \kappa \rho} # contracting over the last two indices.

MAIN QUESTION
They have that #(*)^2=-1. # However I compute the following, can someone please tell me what I am doing wrong? Thanks

$$R*_{ab}^{kp}=\epsilon_{ab\alpha\mu}R^{*\alpha \mu \kappa \rho}

=\epsilon_{ab \alpha \mu} \epsilon^{\alpha \mu \nu \lambda}R_{\nu \lambda \kappa \rho}$$$$=2 \delta^{a}_{\nu} \delta^b_{\lambda}-2\delta^b_{\nu}\delta^a_{\lambda}R_{\nu\lambda \kappa \rho}

=2 R_{ab\kappa \rho}-2_{ba\kappa \rho} = 4 R_{ab \kappa \rho} $$
 
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When acting on a ##p##-form, and with a Lorentzian signature, ##*^2 = - (-1)^{p(n-p)}##. To show it use the identity ##\epsilon^{a \dots c \dots} \epsilon_{b \dots c \dots} = -p! (n-p)! \delta^{a}_{[b} \dots \delta^{\dots}_{\dots]}##. I think that's what you're trying to do in your working but it's so messy & so many typos I can't follow it.
 
Last edited:
ergospherical said:
When acting on a ##p##-form, and with a Lorentzian signature, ##*^2 = - (-1)^{p(n-p)}##. To show it use the identity ##\epsilon^{a \dots c \dots} \epsilon_{b \dots c \dots} = -p! (n-p)! \delta^{a \dots}_{[b \dots]}##. I think that's what you're trying to do in your working but it's so messy I can't follow it.
Yeh, apologies was just trying to edit the format now- need to familiarise myself with the phantom command for index spacing (just need some chicken first, too much running).

I don't have a background in differential forms, but I think a tensor can only be written as a p-form if it is antisymmetric- so here when you say 'p-form' this is referring to considering the first two indices and last two indices separately, I assume?

I have started with identity:

##\epsilon^{\alpha \mu \nu \lambda}\epsilon_{\beta \gamma \kappa \rho}=-4!\delta^{[\alpha_{\beta}\delta^{\mu}_{\gamma}\delta^{\nu}_{\kappa}\delta^{\lambda}]_{\rho}##And then it can be shown that for two contracted indices:

$$\epsilon^{\alpha \mu \nu \lambda} \epsilon_{\lambda \nu \kappa \rho}=2\delta^{\mu}_{\kappa}\delta^{\alpha}_{\rho}-2\delta^{\alpha}_{\kappa}\delta^{\mu}_{\rho} $$
 
You can Hodge over either pair of the Riemann indices. Since it's effectively a 2-form it might be easier to rename it e.g. ##R_{abcd} \equiv A_{ab}## for fixed ##c##, ##d##. Then\begin{align*}
{(*^2 A)}_{c_1 c_2} = \frac{1}{2} \epsilon_{c_1 c_2 a_1 a_2} {(*A)}^{a_1 a_2} = \frac{1}{4} \epsilon_{c_1 c_2 a_1 a_2} \epsilon^{a_1 a_2 b_1 b_2} A_{b_1 b_2}
\end{align*}Now use ##\epsilon_{c_1 c_2 a_1 a_2} \epsilon^{a_1 a_2 b_1 b_2} = -4 \delta^{b_1}_{[c_1} \dots \delta^{b_2}_{c_2]} = -4(\delta^{b_1}_{c_1} \delta^{b_2}_{c_2} - \delta^{b_1}_{c_2} \delta^{b_2}_{c_1})##
 
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