How can an atom reach less than absolute zero?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of negative temperatures and how atoms can theoretically exist at temperatures below absolute zero. Participants explore the implications of negative temperatures in thermodynamics and statistical mechanics, addressing both theoretical and conceptual aspects.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that negative absolute temperatures can be understood through the concept of inverse temperature, where negative temperatures are considered "hotter" than any positive temperatures.
  • Others argue that the terminology used in popular science can be misleading, asserting that a thermodynamical absolute temperature cannot be negative and that this would imply a system decreasing in entropy when heat is added, which has not been observed.
  • A participant raises the question of whether a system formed by nuclear spins of small atoms in a solid matrix could be considered immobile, referencing discussions from an MIT website.
  • Some contributions highlight that for negative temperatures to be meaningful, the energy spectrum of the system must be bounded, and that population inversion is a key concept in understanding negative temperatures.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of equilibrium states, with some participants noting that systems with negative temperatures are not in thermal equilibrium.
  • A participant expresses confusion regarding the concept of negative temperatures and seeks clarification on how it can be physically understood, as well as the mathematical implications.
  • Another participant attempts to explain the relationship between temperature and coldness using the inverse temperature scale, indicating that negative temperatures correspond to a state of extreme hotness.
  • Some participants emphasize the need for mathematical understanding to grasp the concepts being discussed, while others express difficulty in understanding the mathematical formulations presented.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the concept of negative temperatures, with some agreeing on the theoretical framework while others contest the validity of negative temperatures in thermodynamics. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the definitions of temperature and the assumptions underlying the concept of negative temperatures. The implications of equilibrium versus non-equilibrium states are also not fully resolved.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying thermodynamics, statistical mechanics, or anyone curious about the implications of temperature in physical systems, particularly in advanced theoretical contexts.

  • #31
Quantum Velocity said:
But just read the link in the beginning they said so not me.

This unusual advance could lead to new engines that could technically be more than 100 percent efficient, and shed light on mysteries such as dark energy, the mysterious substance that is apparently pulling our universe apart.
:headbang:

What can I say? Don't learn science from news articles. This is 100% genuine cow manure.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
Quantum Velocity said:
But just read the link in the beginning they said so not me.

That part of the text was probably written by whoever is in charge of PR at their university. Press releases do -unfortunately- have a tendency to exaggerate the impact of results.

Personally I wouldn't even want to use the concept of temperature in this case. There are many non-equilibrium systems where the temperature is either ill defined or simply not meaningful.
 
  • #33
DrClaude said:
What can I say? Don't learn science from news articles. This is 100% genuine cow manure.

Umm... That why i asked you guy.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: hsdrop
  • #34
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Quantum Velocity
  • #35
Quantum Velocity said:
i think heat must flow from the positive to negative for
o_O
Heat will flow from the hotter system to the colder one. That is the second law of thermodynamics. Actually, negative absolute temperature systems are hotter than positive ones, and are actually hotter than the infinite positive absolute temperature. You should take a look at the papers referenced in the link I gave below, it is pretty clear in there.

You have to think it this way: the definition for temperature can be given as:

##\displaystyle \left(\frac{\partial S}{\partial U}\right)_x=\frac{1}{T}##

But S is a concave function, this comes from thermodynamics (U is of course the internal energy). So to reach from positive to negative absolute temperatures, you must pass through a maximum of S:

##\displaystyle \left(\frac{\partial S}{\partial U}\right)_x=0\rightarrow T=\infty##.

With the system of spins is actually really easy to picture what happens. In the first place, you must have bounds in the energy so you can normalize the probability distributions.

If you place a system of spins in a magnetic field, the lowest energy state will be given with all the spins pointing in the same direction given by the external magnetic field. This is a zero entropy state, you have only one microstate for the given macrostate at T=0K. When you rise temperature, you will have some spins pointing in the direction of the external magnetic field, and others in the opposite direction, until you reach a maximum in entropy, a very disordered state, where there are many microstates compatible for the given macrostate at that temperature.

Now think of this situation, you start with the system in a positive absolute temperature state, close to T=0K, and suddenly you invert the external magnetic field: now the system will be trapped in a state of negative absolute temperature, with most spins pointing in the direction opposite to the external magnetic field. This is the population inversion that was mentioned before.

The thing is that the laws of thermodynamics and the usual statistical mechanics works in this negative absolute temperature states. You just change T by -T, and you see that the population of a given state will be:

##\displaystyle P_i \propto \exp{\left(\frac{E_i}{\kappa_B T}\right)}##,

so now the system tends to occupy the higher energy states, instead of the lower ones (which is the situation given by the sudden change in the direction of the external magnetic field).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Quantum Velocity
  • #36
thx a lot Telemachus
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Telemachus

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 38 ·
2
Replies
38
Views
6K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K