How can heat exchangers have COP>1

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of Coefficient of Performance (COP) in heat pumps, particularly how heat pumps can achieve a COP greater than 1. Participants explore the mechanics of heat transfer, the relationship between energy input and output, and the implications of using heat pumps for heating a house.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant, Vidar, expresses confusion about how heat pumps can have a COP greater than 1, questioning the energy dynamics involved in heating a house.
  • Another participant clarifies that heat pumps move heat rather than generate it, allowing for a COP greater than 1, and compares it to pumping water where the energy output can exceed the mechanical energy input.
  • There is a discussion about the concept of "focusing" heat from a larger volume of cooler air to a smaller volume of warmer air, with some participants agreeing on this characterization.
  • Concerns are raised regarding the overall energy efficiency and environmental impact of heat pumps when the electricity used is generated from fossil fuels.
  • Vidar questions the possibility of using heat pump technology in power plants to generate more energy than consumed, leading to a discussion about the inverse relationship between the efficiency of heat engines and heat pumps.
  • Another participant asserts that the efficiency of a heat engine and heat pump are inverses, indicating that a heat pump with a high COP does not lead to a net gain in energy when converted back to mechanical power.
  • Vidar further explores the idea of a self-powered system using two heat pumps with different COPs, questioning the relationship between COP and efficiency.
  • A later reply emphasizes that the temperature difference produced by a heat pump with a high COP is insufficient to efficiently run a heat engine, indicating a trade-off between temperature difference and COP.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the mechanics of heat pumps and the concept of COP, but there are differing views on the implications of using heat pumps for energy generation and the efficiency of potential systems involving multiple heat pumps.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the efficiency of energy sources and the relationship between COP and efficiency, which remain unresolved. The implications of using different energy sources for electricity generation are also noted but not fully explored.

Low-Q
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Hi,

I am building a new house. This house will be heated by a heat exchanger. I have been told that heat exchangers have a COP of 3-4 in practice (depending on inside and outside temperature, and the cooling medium).

What I do not understand, is the COP>1 part. In order to "charge" the house with heat, by extracting heat from outside air, it will require energy input to the pump. The house is leaking heat back to the outside air, so the heat exchanger must run in order to keep the same temperature in the house.

The house is insolated well, but that would also mean that a normal electric oven must add small portions of energy to keep the air inside at the same temperature...

I simply cannot understand how input energy is greater than output energy, and that heat exchangers does not require the same energy to sustain the temperature insde as a conventional electric oven does.

Can someone explain this in detail?

br.

Vidar
 
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You mean a heat pump, not a heat exchangers.

Since a heat pump doesn't make heat directly, it just moves it from one place to another, it can have a COP (which is different than the efficiency) of greater than 1. Consider this: if you are pumping water, the energy input and efficiency are determined by flow rate and pressure. But what if you were more interested in the fact that the water was very warm compared to what you need. Then the energy you get out of the water and the pumping energy aren't directly related to each other anymore and you can get more heat energy out than mechanical energy put in. Same idea with a heat pump or air conditioner (which also has a COP of at least 3).
 
russ_watters said:
You mean a heat pump, not a heat exchangers.

Since a heat pump doesn't make heat directly, it just moves it from one place to another, it can have a COP (which is different than the efficiency) of greater than 1. Consider this: if you are pumping water, the energy input and efficiency are determined by flow rate and pressure. But what if you were more interested in the fact that the water was very warm compared to what you need. Then the energy you get out of the water and the pumping energy aren't directly related to each other anymore and you can get more heat energy out than mechanical energy put in. Same idea with a heat pump or air conditioner (which also has a COP of at least 3).
OK, so the heat pump is just moving heat from the outside air to the inside at "no" cost except the energy required to maintain the pressure difference between hot and cold zone?
Is it correct to say that a heat pump is "focusing" the heat in the enormous volume of heat containing air at a small point (The heat pump itself)?

But wouldn't the potential difference in temperature be the same as the energy required to run the pump? If so, I am a little confused - still...Vidar
 
Last edited:
Low-Q said:
OK, so the heat pump is just moving heat from the outside air to the inside at "no" cost except the energy required to maintain the pressure difference between hot and cold zone?
Is it correct to say that a heat pump is "focusing" the heat in the enormous volume of heat containing air at a small point
It is taking some of the thermal energy of a larger mass of cooler matter (the ground) and transferring it to a smaller mass of warmer matter (the air in your house). If that is what you mean by "focusing", yes.
(The heat pump itself)?
The heat pump does the work needed to transfer the thermal energy. The second law of thermodynamics says that heat only flows on its own from hotter bodies to cooler bodies. To make it flow the other way, you must do work.
But wouldn't the potential difference in temperature be the same as the energy required to run the pump? If so, I am a little confused - still...
The greater the temperature difference, the greater the work (input energy) that must be done in order to move a given quantity of heat from the outside to the inside.

Incidentally, if your heat pump has a COP of only 3 or 4, you are not going to be saving much energy or reducing CO2 emissions overall if you use electricity that is generated by burning fossil fuels. A coal fired power plant is about 1/3 efficient: one unit of electricity output for three units of heat from burning fossil fuel. And there are losses from transmission that reduce that electrical energy a little further in getting it to your house. So if your COP is 3 you will be getting heat in your house that is about the same as if you burned fossil fuel in a furnace. If you are getting your electricity from a hydro, wind or solar source it is a different matter.

AM
 
Does it exist "power plants" using heat pump technology? I mean, if it is possible to harness the heat from thin air and then "focus" that heat energy to make it more efficient for a heat-to-mechanical work engines (turbines or similar), wouldn't it be possible to generate electric power that is greater than the energy required to run the pump? In my mind, that should not be possible, but if the energy is present already in the air, it might be possible after all?

Vidar
 
No. Efficiency of a heat engine and heat pump are inverses of each other. So if a heat pump has a cop of 4, then the best a heat engine could do for converting back to mechanical power is 25%, for no net gain.
 
Ok. Thanks. Now I understand much better.
 
russ_watters said:
No. Efficiency of a heat engine and heat pump are inverses of each other. So if a heat pump has a cop of 4, then the best a heat engine could do for converting back to mechanical power is 25%, for no net gain.
This thread is old, but I have one question that I came up with here the other day. If a heat pump have a COP of 4, and I also have a heat pump with COP 2, would that last heat pump become a heat engine with 50% efficiency that is being able to be "self powered" by the COP 4 heat pump? Or is the calculations wrong regarding the relationship between COP and efficiency.

Br.

Vidar
 
Any idea about post 8?

My guess is that the big area in the ground cools down as the "self running" system runs. The ground will be supplied with heat from surrounding groundwater or soil.

Is it possible to increase the efficiency of a heat engine this way - as questioned in post 8?

Anyone?

Vidar
 
  • #10
The performance of an ideal heat pump and heat engine is dictated by the temperature difference produced/utilized. So the DT produced by a 4:1 COP heat pump will be much, much too small to run a 50% efficient heat engine. If you try to increase the DT out of the heat pump, the COP will go down. If you try to use a lower DT to run the heat engine, the efficiency will go down.

You can google for the efficiency equations and play with them -- they are not hard to use.
 

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