How can I find the kernel of a homomorphism of finite groups?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding the kernel of a homomorphism from the group Z8 to Z4. Participants explore the properties of the homomorphism, provide definitions, and engage in clarifying the underlying group structures involved.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants present the homomorphism mapping from Z8 to Z4 and seek to find the kernel K.
  • It is noted that the kernel consists of elements that map to 0, prompting further exploration of what those elements are.
  • A participant suggests a more compact notation for the homomorphism and emphasizes the need to prove that the map is indeed a homomorphism by showing it preserves addition.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of multiples of 8 and their relationship to multiples of 4, with a hint provided regarding odd multiples of 4.
  • Another participant clarifies the notation used for elements in Z8 and Z4, explaining the significance of using brackets to denote group elements and their definitions.
  • Participants express confusion about certain steps in the reasoning, particularly regarding the relationship between k and its multiples.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the definitions and properties of the groups Z8 and Z4, but there is no consensus on the specific elements that constitute the kernel of the homomorphism, and some points remain contested.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved mathematical steps regarding the identification of all elements in the kernel, and the discussion includes assumptions about the properties of the groups involved.

onie mti
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i was given that Z8 to Z4 is given by
f= 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3

where f is homomorphism. how can i find the kernal K
 
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onie mti said:
i was given that Z8 to Z4 is given by
f= 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3

where f is homomorphism. how can i find the kernal K

The kernel is the set of elements that map to 0...
 
It would be more compact to write:

$f(k\text{ (mod }8)) = k\text{ (mod }4)$

or even more succinctly:

$f([k]_8) = [k]_4$.

Also, usually one doesn't just "declare" a map to be a homomorphism, one has to prove it. In this example that means showing:

$f([k]_8+[m]_8) = f([k]_8) + f([m]_8)$ where the addition on the left is mod 8, and the addition on the right is mod 4.

I would start by showing:

$f([k]_8 + [m]_8) = f([k+m]_8) = [k+m]_4$.

Now clearly every $k = 8t$ (every integral multiple of 8) is also a multiple of 4: $k = 4(2t)$.

This means that $f([0]_8) = [0]_4$, so we know the kernel will at least contain $[0]_8$.

Are there integral multiples of 4 that are NOT multiples of 8?

(Hint: what are odd multiples of 4 reduced mod 8? Start with:

(2n+1)(4) = 8n + 4 =...? mod 8)
 
Deveno said:
It would be more compact to write:

$f(k\text{ (mod }8)) = k\text{ (mod }4)$

or even more succinctly:

$f([k]_8) = [k]_4$.

Also, usually one doesn't just "declare" a map to be a homomorphism, one has to prove it. In this example that means showing:

$f([k]_8+[m]_8) = f([k]_8) + f([m]_8)$ where the addition on the left is mod 8, and the addition on the right is mod 4.

I would start by showing:

$f([k]_8 + [m]_8) = f([k+m]_8) = [k+m]_4$.

Now clearly every $k = 8t$ (every integral multiple of 8) is also a multiple of 4: $k = 4(2t)$.

This means that $f([0]_8) = [0]_4$, so we know the kernel will at least contain $[0]_8$.

Are there integral multiples of 4 that are NOT multiples of 8?

(Hint: what are odd multiples of 4 reduced mod 8? Start with:

(2n+1)(4) = 8n + 4 =...? mod 8)

I do not follow from the point where you said k=8t, why are we saying that
 
Presumably, we are dealing with the groups $\Bbb Z_8$ and $\Bbb Z_4$.

Do you recall how these groups are defined?

The reason I put brackets around the "$k$", is because the "1" (for example) in $\Bbb Z_8$ is not "the same 1" as we have in the integers.

I "tag" the brackets with a subscript, so we know "which group they came from".

So when I write $k$ (or some other letter) without the brackets, I mean the actual integer.

Here is how we create $\Bbb Z_8$:

we send the sets:

$\{...-24,-16,-8,0,8,16,24,...\} \to [0]_8$
$\{...-23,-15,-7,1,9,17,25,...\} \to [1]_8$
...
$\{8n+k: n \in \Bbb Z\} \to [k]_8$.

So if an integer $m$ is in the SET $[k]_8$ (these are COSETS of the multiples of 8, that is cosets of the subgroup $8\Bbb Z \subseteq \Bbb Z$), this means $m = 8n + k$, for some integer $n$.

The group $\Bbb Z_8$ is referred to variously as:

"The cyclic group of order 8"
"The integers modulo 8"
"The quotient group $\Bbb Z/8\Bbb Z$".

Do you have more questions?
 
Deveno said:
Presumably, we are dealing with the groups $\Bbb Z_8$ and $\Bbb Z_4$.

Do you recall how these groups are defined?

The reason I put brackets around the "$k$", is because the "1" (for example) in $\Bbb Z_8$ is not "the same 1" as we have in the integers.

I "tag" the brackets with a subscript, so we know "which group they came from".

So when I write $k$ (or some other letter) without the brackets, I mean the actual integer.

Here is how we create $\Bbb Z_8$:

we send the sets:

$\{...-24,-16,-8,0,8,16,24,...\} \to [0]_8$
$\{...-23,-15,-7,1,9,17,25,...\} \to [1]_8$
...
$\{8n+k: n \in \Bbb Z\} \to [k]_8$.

So if an integer $m$ is in the SET $[k]_8$ (these are COSETS of the multiples of 8, that is cosets of the subgroup $8\Bbb Z \subseteq \Bbb Z$), this means $m = 8n + k$, for some integer $n$.

The group $\Bbb Z_8$ is referred to variously as:

"The cyclic group of order 8"
"The integers modulo 8"
"The quotient group $\Bbb Z/8\Bbb Z$".

Do you have more questions?
thanks a lot. :o
 

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