How Can I Prove There Are c Sequences of Rational Numbers?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter MathematicalPhysicist
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Sequences Set
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around proving that there are continuum many sequences of rational numbers, specifically showing that the cardinality of the set of sequences of rational numbers, denoted |Q^N|, is equal to c (the cardinality of the continuum). The scope includes mathematical reasoning and exploration of cardinality concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that since Q^N is a subset of R^N, it follows that |Q^N| <= c, but this does not directly help in proving |Q^N| = c.
  • Another participant proposes that each real number can be represented as a sequence of rational numbers, providing an example with the number π, which implies a one-to-one function from real numbers to sequences of rational numbers, suggesting c ≤ |Q^N|.
  • A different participant recalls a theorem regarding cardinalities for infinite sets, stating that a^c = b^c for a ≤ b ≤ c, but notes the necessity of the axiom of choice for the proof, indicating potential complexity in establishing the result.
  • This participant also mentions that since |Q| = |N|, it might be easier to prove |N|^|N| = 2^|N| or |N|^|N| = |R| instead.
  • Another participant acknowledges a previous contributor's proof but does not elaborate on its content.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various approaches and ideas, but there is no consensus on a definitive method or proof for establishing that |Q^N| = c. Multiple competing views and uncertainties remain regarding the best approach to the problem.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions regarding the use of the axiom of choice and the relationships between cardinalities are not fully explored, leaving the discussion open to interpretation and further inquiry.

MathematicalPhysicist
Science Advisor
Gold Member
Messages
4,662
Reaction score
372
i need to prove that there are c sqequences of rational numbers.
basically, i need to show that |Q^N|=c.
here, are a few attempts from my behalf:
i thought that Q^N is a subset of R^N, so |Q^N|<=c, but this doesn't help here, so i thought perhaps to find a bijection from {0,1}^N to Q^N.
i know that each rational number can be represented in base 2 by the digits 0,1, but I am having difficulty to formalise this idea.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Any real number can be identified with a specific sequence of rational numbers. For example, the real number [itex]\pi[/itex] can be identified with the sequence 3, 3.1, 3.14, 3.141, 3.1415, 3.14159, 3.141592, with each term (a rational number because it is a terminating decimal) being one more decimal place in the decimal expansion of [itex]\pi[/itex]. This gives a one-to-one function from the set set of real numbers to the set of all sequences of rational numbers and so shows that [itex]c\le |Q^N|[/itex].
 
Grr. If I remember correctly, it's a theorem that for infinite c:

[tex]a^c = b^c[/tex]

whenever [itex]a \leq b \leq c[/itex]. The proof isn't immediately leaping to mind, though. :frown:

Oh, bother, I just checked Wikipedia, and it looks like you need the axiom of choice to prove that, so the proof won't be as easy as I had hoped.

Anyways, LQG, remember that |Q| = |N|. It might be easier to try and prove |N||N| = 2|N| or |N||N| = |R| instead.

But, we see HoI seems to have proven it directly, so don't listen to me. :wink:
 
Last edited:
Oh, Hurkyl, I'm blushing.


By the way, I had a friend who, on another forum, used the name "Hog on Ice" which was regularly abbreviated "HOI". So whenever I see "HOI" used for "HallsofIvy", I'm surprized!
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
2K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K