How can I take the derivative?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of functional derivatives in the context of field theory, specifically concerning the action defined for a scalar field in a globally hyperbolic spacetime. Participants explore the proper formulation of the functional derivative with respect to both the field and its time derivative, as well as the implications for defining canonical momentum.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a calculation for the variation of the action with respect to the time derivative of the field, questioning how to formalize this process correctly.
  • Another participant expresses skepticism about the necessity and definition of such a derivative, seeking more context to provide assistance.
  • A third participant describes the spacetime structure and the goal of finding the canonical momentum conjugate to the field by varying the action.
  • One participant outlines the conventional definition of canonical momentum in field theory and questions the validity of defining a functional derivative with respect to the time derivative of the field.
  • Another participant references Landau & Lifshitz, discussing the analogy between varying the action with respect to coordinates and the motivation for defining the canonical momentum in the context of the original post.
  • A later reply suggests a potential relationship involving the chain rule for functional derivatives but expresses uncertainty about the second term in the proposed expression.
  • Participants discuss the known relationship between functional derivatives and delta functions, questioning whether properties exist that would allow for inversion similar to normal derivatives.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of agreement on the conventional definitions and approaches within field theory, but there is no consensus on how to properly define or compute the functional derivative with respect to the time derivative of the field. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views and uncertainties present.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions made about the definitions of functional derivatives and the specific context of the action being considered. The discussion does not resolve the mathematical steps necessary for a complete understanding of the proposed formulations.

etotheipi
The action considered is \begin{align*}
S[\Phi] = \int_M dt d^3 x \sqrt{-g} \left( -\frac{1}{2}g^{ab} \partial_a \Phi \partial_b \Phi - \frac{1}{2}m^2 \Phi^2\right)
\end{align*}I can "see" unrigorously that variation with respect to ##\partial_t \Phi(x)## it is going to be\begin{align*}
\frac{\delta S}{\delta(\partial_t \Phi(x))} &= -\frac{1}{2}\sqrt{-g} g^{ab} \frac{\delta}{\delta(\partial_t \Phi(x))} \left( \partial_a \Phi \partial_b \Phi \right) \\

&= -\frac{1}{2}\sqrt{-g} g^{ab} \cdot 2 \partial_a \Phi \delta^t_b \\

&= -\sqrt{-g} g^{at} \partial_a \Phi \\

&= \sqrt{h} n^{a} \partial_a \Phi
\end{align*}How do I do this calculation properly? For instance to find the functional variation with respect to ##\Phi## I could consider ##\lim_{\epsilon \rightarrow 0} \frac{1}{\epsilon}\left( S[\Phi + \epsilon \alpha] - S[\Phi] \right)##. But how do I write it when considering the functional derivative of ##S## with respect to ##\partial_t \Phi##; do I let the action have a second argument ##S = S[\Phi, \partial_a \Phi]## and proceed from there?
 
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Why do you need such a strange derivative? I don't really see how such a derivative would be defined, maybe if you give me some more context I can help
 
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##(M, g_{ab})## is a globally hyperbolic spacetime and the metric is here written ##ds^2 = -N^2 dt^2 + h_{ij} (dx^i + N^i dt)(dx^j + N^j dt)## with ##t## a global time coordinate labelling the cauchy surfaces ##\Sigma_t## of normal ##-N(dt)_a## and induced metric ##h_{ab}##, such that ##\sqrt{-g} = N\sqrt{h}##.

The aim is to find the canonical momentum ##\Pi(x)## conjugate to ##\Phi## by varying ##S## with respect to ##\partial_t \Phi(x)##
 
Ok, usually when one has an action of the form
$$S = \int \mathscr{L}(\Phi, \partial_\mu \Phi, t) d^4 x$$
the canonical momentum is defined as
$$\Pi(x)=\frac{\partial \mathscr{L}(\Phi, \partial_\mu \Phi, t)}{\partial(\partial_0\Phi)}$$
This one is almost immediate to compute and indeed gives the answer you have in #1. But, otherwise, I don't know how one is supposed to define something like
$$\frac{\delta S[\Phi]}{\delta (\partial_0 \Phi)}$$
At first, something like that seems nonsensical to me, but maybe there's a way to properly define such a thing...
 
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Yeah, it's a bit strange. Landau & Lifshitz explained similar sorts of things, e.g. varying the action with respect to the co-ordinates (i.e. considering only admissible trajectories between ##a \longrightarrow b## and keeping ##(\delta x^i)_a = 0## but ##(\delta x^i)_b## variable) then you can show that$$\delta S = -mcu_i \delta x^i \implies p_i = - \frac{\partial S}{\partial x^i}$$so the time-component of the momentum four-vector would just be ##p_t = - \partial S / \partial t##.

I figured the motivation for ##\Pi(x) = \delta S / \delta (\partial_t \Phi)## in the OP would be analogous to that but I don't know how to formalise that at all. I don't know any field theory, really :frown:
 
Indeed, now that I think about it, since functional derivatives have the chain rule, maybe we can write it like
$$\frac{\delta S[\Phi]}{\delta (\partial_0 \Phi)} = \frac{\delta S[\Phi]}{\delta \Phi}\frac{\delta \Phi}{\delta (\partial_0 \Phi)}$$
Then the first derivative is the usual one that is used to derive E-L equations, the problem is the second term.
We know that $$\frac{\delta (\partial_0 \Phi)(y)}{\delta \Phi(x)}=-\partial_0 \delta^{(4)}(x-y),$$ but I don't know if there exists a property for functional derivatives that allow us to invert this, similar to normal derivatives.
 
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