How can I use vector identities to prove and explain the Ponyting theorem?

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around proving and explaining the Poynting theorem using vector identities. The original poster presents a series of equations related to electromagnetic fields and attempts to manipulate them to derive the theorem.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to apply vector identities and substitutions to derive the Poynting theorem. They express uncertainty about the next steps after expanding their equation. Participants discuss the use of the chain rule to relate terms in the theorem.

Discussion Status

Some participants provide hints regarding the application of the chain rule to facilitate the derivation. There is an acknowledgment of the original poster's progress, but no explicit consensus on the final outcome has been reached.

Contextual Notes

The original poster references specific equations (8.87 and 8.88) found online, indicating they may be crucial to their understanding but are currently unfamiliar with them. There is also a mention of imposed homework rules that guide the discussion.

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Homework Statement



Prove and explain the Ponyting theorem

Homework Equations



S = E x H [1]
[itex]\nabla[/itex].S = [itex]\nabla[/itex].(E x H) [2]

[itex]\nabla[/itex] x E = -[itex]\partial[/itex]B/[itex]\partial[/itex]t [3]

[itex]\nabla[/itex] x H = [itex]\partial[/itex] D/[itex]\partial[/itex]t [4]

D = [itex]\epsilon[/itex]E + P [5]

B = [itex]\mu[/itex]H + [itex]\mu[/itex]M [6]

The Attempt at a Solution



I understand I am to use the vector identity to obtain [2]

[itex]\nabla[/itex] . ( E x H ) = ([itex]\nabla[/itex] E).H - ([itex]\nabla[/itex] x H ). E

I then substitute [3] and [4] into [2]

I then use the definition from [5] and [6] and sub them into my equation

I have:

[itex]\nabla[/itex] . S = -[itex]\partial[/itex][[itex]\mu[/itex]H + [itex]\mu[/itex]M].H/[itex]\partial[/itex]t - [itex]\partial[/itex][[itex]\epsilon[/itex]E + P].E /[itex]\partial[/itex]t

i can then expand out the bracket but I'm not sure what to do next

The result I'm aiming for is

[itex]\nabla[/itex].S = -[itex]\partial[/itex]/dt ( 1/2 [itex]\epsilon[/itex]E^2 + 1/2[itex]\mu[/itex] H^2) + E.[itex]\partial[/itex]P/[itex]\partial[/itex]t + [itex]\mu[/itex]H.[itex]\partial[/itex]M/[itex]\partial[/itex]tbrowsing google i have found this. 8.87 and 8.88 will give me the answer I want but I'm unfamiliar with them. could anyone shed some light on this
 
Last edited:
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Your almost there. Here' a hint to shed light on those equations:

Use the chain rule to expand

[tex]\frac{1}{2}\frac{\partial H^2}{\partial t} = ?[/tex]
 
[itex]\frac{2}{2} H . \frac{\partial H} {\partial t}[/itex]

not sure why you need to chain rule though?
 
The chain rule is where the justification for EQ 8.87 and 8.88 comes from. You should be able to use the chain rule to get the E^2 and H^2 terms in Poynting's theorem from terms like E*dE/dt.
 
G01 said:
The chain rule is where the justification for EQ 8.87 and 8.88 comes from. You should be able to use the chain rule to get the E^2 and H^2 terms in Poynting's theorem from terms like E*dE/dt.

apologies. Was being dumb for a moment there. I believe I have it now. thanks
 
No problem! :)
 

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