How Do I Apply Multivariable Calculus to Thermodynamics Problems?

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around applying multivariable calculus concepts to thermodynamics problems, specifically focusing on the relationships between internal energy, pressure, temperature, and volume. Participants are exploring how to derive expressions involving these variables using partial derivatives and the chain rule.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Problem interpretation

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants are attempting to express pressure as a function of temperature and volume, questioning the necessity of integration versus differentiation in their calculations. There is discussion about deriving expressions for internal energy and pressure using given thermodynamic relationships.

Discussion Status

Some participants have provided guidance on differentiating rather than integrating to find pressure. Multiple approaches are being explored, with some participants expressing uncertainty about their derivations and whether they are correct. There is a recognition of overlapping results among attempts, indicating a productive exchange of ideas.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that they have not yet learned multivariable integration, which may be impacting their ability to solve the problem fully. There is also mention of constraints related to homework rules and the complexity of the relationships being analyzed.

kamu
Messages
11
Reaction score
0

Homework Statement


pFwiQ16.png


Homework Equations


au/as=T
au/av=p
S/R=ln[(v-b)(u+a/c)^2]

The Attempt at a Solution


1/T=1/au/as=as/au
S=ln[(v-b)(U+a/v)^2]R
as/au=[(v-b)2(U+a/v)(1)]R/[(v-b)(U+a/v)^2]=2R/(U+a/v)=1/T
T=(U+a/v)/2R
U=2RT-a/v
au/av=-P
au=-Pav
integrate au to get u=-pv+c

u=-pv+c=2RT-a/v
-p=2RT-a/v-C
p=a/v-2RT+c

7uylucs.png
uploaded my work in image format.

One of the main problem I have is that we haven't learned multivariable integration(or partial integration I don't know what it's called.)

edit:
more attempts
zQrph03.png


2M8nJNS.png
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
You found an expression for U as a function of V, and you're told ##P = -\frac{\partial U}{\partial V}##. Why are you integrating? Just differentiate U with respect to V to find the pressure.
 
vela said:
You found an expression for U as a function of V, and you're told ##P = -\frac{\partial U}{\partial V}##. Why are you integrating? Just differentiate U with respect to V to find the pressure.
Hi vela, I need to express pressure as a function of temperature and volume. I need to get both T and V in the expression. Which is the problem I'm having.

taking the au/av would give me a/v^2
 
kBIawEe.png

Another attempt.
 
You already correctly obtained ##\left(\frac{\partial U}{\partial S}\right)_V=T=\frac{(U+\frac{a}{V})}{2R}##. Now please show us what you get for ##\left(\frac{\partial U}{\partial V}\right)_S=-P##. You will need to combine the two relationships.

Chet
 
Chestermiller said:
You already correctly obtained ##\left(\frac{\partial U}{\partial S}\right)_V=T=\frac{(U+\frac{a}{V})}{2R}##. Now please show us what you get for ##\left(\frac{\partial U}{\partial V}\right)_S=-P##. You will need to combine the two relationships.

Chet
Hey Chet. In my previous posts I listed how I derived au/av from the chain rule in implicit differentiation. They might not be correct but
au/av=e^(S/R) (-2/(u+a/v))^3 is what I got for fourth attempt

au/av= 2R[((u+a/v)(-a/v^2)]/[(v-b)(u+a/v)^2]/[2R((v-b)(u+a/v))/((v-b)(u+a/v)^2)] is what I got for my second attempt

au/av=-2R/(v-b)(u+a/v)(v^2)/[(2R/(u+a/v))+1/T] is what I got on the third attempt

my derivation are all in the photos.(Not that I think they are right :(. So far unfortunately only my last attempt actually gave me a expression with T in it, T always somehow cancels out in the end in other attempts.
 
I took a simpler/different approach

28OftM6.png
the answer looks appropriate but I'm not sure if I messed up somewhere.
 
I get:
\frac{S}{R}=ln(V-b)+2ln(U+\frac{a}{V})
So,
\frac{dS}{R}=\frac{dV}{V-b}+\frac{2}{(U+\frac{a}{V})}(dU-\frac{a}{V^2}dV)
At constant S, this becomes:
0=(\frac{1}{V-b}-\frac{2a/V^2}{(U+\frac{a}{V})})dV<br /> +\frac{2}{(U+\frac{a}{V})}dU
Solving for ##\partial U/\partial V## gives:
\left(\frac{\partial U}{\partial V}\right)_S=-\frac{(U+a/V)}{2(V-b)}+a/V^2=-P
Does this match any of the results from your attempts?

Chet
 
Chestermiller said:
I get:
\frac{S}{R}=ln(V-b)+2ln(U+\frac{a}{V})
So,
\frac{dS}{R}=\frac{dV}{V-b}+\frac{2}{(U+\frac{a}{V})}(dU-\frac{a}{V^2}dV)
At constant S, this becomes:
0=(\frac{1}{V-b}-\frac{2a/V^2}{(U+\frac{a}{V})})dV<br /> +\frac{2}{(U+\frac{a}{V})}dU
Solving for ##\partial U/\partial V## gives:
\left(\frac{\partial U}{\partial V}\right)_S=-\frac{(U+a/V)}{2(V-b)}+a/V^2=-P
Does this match any of the results from your attempts?

Chet
Hi Chet, yes it matches the results from my last attempt. If I sub in U=2RT-a/v for U in your answer I would get p=RT/(v-b)-a/v^2

\left(\frac{\partial U}{\partial V}\right)_S=-\frac{(2RT-a/v+a/V)}{2(V-b)}+a/V^2=-P

\left(\frac{\partial U}{\partial V}\right)_S=\frac{(RT)}{(V-b)}-a/V^2=P
 
  • #10
I forgot to mention. Thank you for the help Chet! I really appreciate it.
 

Similar threads

Replies
19
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
6K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
Replies
30
Views
5K
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K