How do we infer a closed universe from FLRW metric?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the inference of a closed universe from the Friedmann–Lemaître–Robertson–Walker (FLRW) metric within the framework of General Relativity (GR). Participants explore the relationship between local curvature and global properties of the universe, as well as the implications of measurements of large-scale curvature.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the FLRW metric describes local spacetime behavior and raises questions about how global properties, like a closed universe, can be inferred from local metrics.
  • It is suggested that if large-scale curvature measurements consistently yield positive results, a closed universe might be considered plausible, though certainty is unattainable.
  • One participant mentions that current measurements indicate large-scale curvature is near zero, with a confidence interval that includes both positive and negative curvature possibilities.
  • A participant introduces the cosmological principle, asserting that it implies a maximally symmetric Riemannian manifold, specifically S^3 for positive curvature.
  • A thought experiment is proposed regarding a static universe, discussing how one might estimate large-scale curvature by examining the relationship between volume and radius.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of curvature measurements, with some suggesting that a closed universe is plausible based on positive curvature, while others highlight the uncertainty in current measurements that allow for both positive and negative curvature. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the definitive inference of a closed universe.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in current measurements of curvature, including the dependence on the cosmological principle and the challenges in estimating large-scale curvature in hypothetical static scenarios.

pellman
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The Friedmann–Lemaître–Robertson–Walker metric is a solution of the field equations of GR. It tells us the local behavior of spacetime, that is, g(x) at a given spacetime point x

If the matter density is high enough, the curvature is positive. It is said then that the universe is closed. How is this global property of the manifold inferred from the local metric? Why is an infinite universe of positive local curvature ruled out?
 
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you measure curvature on the largest scale you can
if it kept coming up positive, you might think "closed" was the most plausible explanation
though you could never be entirely sure of course.

so far there is no clear indication. the large scale curvature when measured comes out near zero but the 95% confidence interval straddles zero. both pos and neg are possible

while you are waiting to hear more conclusive indications you might like to think about how largescale curvature is measured. we could talk about that in this thread. it's fascinating. real ingenuity is involved.
 
Last edited:
pellman said:
The Friedmann–Lemaître–Robertson–Walker metric is a solution of the field equations of GR. It tells us the local behavior of spacetime, that is, g(x) at a given spacetime point x

If the matter density is high enough, the curvature is positive. It is said then that the universe is closed. How is this global property of the manifold inferred from the local metric? Why is an infinite universe of positive local curvature ruled out?

I believe the cosmological principle, i.e., spatial homogeneity and isotropy, requires space (not spacetime) to be a maximally symmetric Riemannian manifold. The maximally symmetric 3-dimensional Riemannian manifold with positive intrinsic curvature is S^3 with the standard spatial metric.
 
just as a thoughtexperiment, suppose distances were not expanding, imagine a static universe---how then might you estimate largescale curvature?

Well you could see if the volume of a ball increases as the cube of the radius, or whether at very large radius it begins to grow more slowly than the cube.

How would you estimate volume? In a static situation you might simply count galaxies, assuming a constant number per unit volume
 

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