How do you ask a professor for possibility of publication

[iacephysics]

When you consider joining a professor's research group, how can you bring up the subject of publication in a discrete way. What's a better way than to ask the professor straight up "if I work for you, will I get a publication in a relatively short period of time?" How do you raise this question without making the professor think you care only about grad school application.

 

[Monocles]

Just mention that you're interested in publishing your data, so that he knows to direct you on the right path towards being able to publish.

 

[Vanadium 50]

How do you raise this question without making the professor think you care only about grad school application.

But it sounds like that's exactly what you are interested in, rather than research for its own sake.

I don't think your professors are quite as easily fooled as you may think.

 

[j93]

Research for its own sake is overrated. Publications look better on your application than research for its own sake. If you can find someone who can guide you into first author postition don't worry about the actual topic. His reputation maybe.

 

[timur]

If you are an undergrad student planning to go for grad study, publication is not important. Just do research without insisting on publication and get experience, you will get a strong recommendation letter. If your research is good your professor will suggest you to publish anyways.

 

[j93]

If you are an undergrad student planning to go for grad study, publication is not important. .

You serious. Publications are big bonus points for grad school admissions. The OP knows this otherwise he wouldn't have asked about pubs.

My point is as Vanadium and a lot of people on this forum have said not everyone can get into grad school but everyone can get into undergrad. For undergrad there are tons of people who guide their decisions based on admissions to get every possible boost in their applications and this becomes a big positive for them. I don't understand how your suppose to suddenly not care enough about grad school admissions to seek out every possible boost on your applications especially when everyone says it is more competitive than undergrad. There is no possible way that grad schools can tell that he chose an adviser based on the likelihood of his getting a publication and publications will give his application a boost. You could get into grad school without publications you could also get in with subpar PGRE but I am still not going to recommend seeking out a lower PGRE score or not studying for the PGRE because you want to spend the time learning QFT.

If your research is good your professor will suggest you to publish anyways.

Not true at all. Different sub fields have different rules for who gets publication credit. For example, experimental high energy physics collaborations typically have rules that specify that an author must be a member of the collaboration for a certain amount of time as well as fit various requirements that can change at any given moment.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Research for its own sake is overrated. Publications look better on your application than research for its own sake.

But a statement on a letter of recommendation that says "He was less interested in research for its own sake than in padding his resume for grad school with a publication" would be very bad.

 

[j93]

But a statement on a letter of recommendation that says "He was less interested in research for its own sake than in padding his resume for grad school with a publication" would be very bad.

Thats pretty unlikely. There are droves of HS seniors who do analogous padding when they volunteer for charitable organizations and ask their supervisor in their organization for a recommendation letter yet its is not common for the supervisor to send a recommendation that says "He was less interested in community service for its own sake than in padding his resume for college". The reason it is not common because regardless of the fact that they were interested in padding they should have formed a relationship with their supervisor that the supervisor would not write a recommendation along those lines unless the supervisor is a jerk in which case the student should know enough about his supervisor to see it coming and should also have bothered to find out along with the likelihood of publication whether he fits into the jerk category. People wouldn't pad if it did not work.

 

[ZapperZ]

When you consider joining a professor's research group, how can you bring up the subject of publication in a discrete way. What's a better way than to ask the professor straight up "if I work for you, will I get a publication in a relatively short period of time?" How do you raise this question without making the professor think you care only about grad school application.

I'm not sure if people who have responded to this missed the whole "scenario", but the OP appears to be asking the professor on the possibility of publication BEFORE he/she joins this professor's research work.

I think this is a bit presumptuous. One can never tell about the nature of the outcome of any research work to make any kind of guarantee that the work will result in a publication. I've had several undergraduates joining my project during the summer, and I never make that kind of a promise or guarantee. I can't! How does one guarantee the outcome of a physics research conducted over a specific period of time? Do you think Mother Nature will cooperate with you on this?

If I were that professor, I will tend to lean towards what Vanadium has said, that this person doesn't really want to do the work, but rather care more about getting his/her name on some paper. Oh, I'm not naive about wanting to pad a resume with publications. However, it shouldn't be the MAIN reason why someone wants to work in my project. By asking such a question right off the bat, one IS making that impression.

I would not hire such a person.

Zz.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Oh, I'm not naive about wanting to pad a resume with publications. However, it shouldn't be the MAIN reason why someone wants to work in my project. By asking such a question right off the bat, one IS making that impression.

I would not hire such a person.

Exactly. And I wouldn't hire such a person either. Opening with the question of publication really puts the cart before the horse.

 

[physics girl phd]

Exactly. And I wouldn't hire such a person either. Opening with the question of publication really puts the cart before the horse.

And if you do your homework about professor X's research, you should know some important things like how often his/her group publishes... if undergraduates are on any of those publications... if he/she has recently been awarded any grants (to support big projects) or prestigious research awards (indicating a large body of important research already out there... aka good productivity). You should be able to find these things online (without professor X knowing you've done this). Of course even when you make a good bet, it might not pan out into large quantities of publications, or even one.

 

[Choppy]

I might be in disagreement with some posters here, but I think it's fine to ask about the possibility of publication up front. Just because you're interested in a publication does not mean that you're not interested in the research itself.

The caveate is that you have to be willing to accept the answer. The truth of the matter is that simply collecting and processing data for a couple months (the nature of a lot of undergraduate lab assistant positions) does not always meet the criteria for authorship. In my field anyway, you generally need to be a part of the study's design, execution and synthesis and at the very least contribute some original thought to the work.

When working for a professor, it's important to keep in mind that you're not slave labour. It's important to ask questions before accepting any position including: the payment you will receive (if any), the expectations with respect to hours, output, end goals of the project, and whether or not you will be named on any resulting publications. Bringing these kinds of things up is not easy. I would recommend that when you go for any interview or meeting, you write out your concerns ahead of time. Then be polite and professional when bringing them up.

 

[ZapperZ]

No, what one could ask is if the research project that one is applying for MAY result in a publication. That's different than "if I work for you, will I get a publication in a relatively short period of time?". The first one is simply checking if the work is a research front work that could result in a publication. The latter is more "demanding", especially with the "short period of time" part, as if one can predict what can happen in a short period of time, especially in experimental work. Try working in experimental high energy physics when the Tevatron was down for that long upgrade.

Zz.

 

[j93]

Exactly. And I wouldn't hire such a person either. Opening with the question of publication really puts the cart before the horse.

As a general rule I would hope that nobody on this forum would lack enough social skills
to open with the question about publications.

If you were trying to have sex without working too hard. I would suggest a female who sleeps around. That doesn't mean that person should go around asking every single female he meets if she's a whore or start every date with "are we going to have sex tonight?". I would suggest he research/asks around to determine who sleeps around than get to know those people. Ask around and research the professors.

 

[iacephysics]

No, what one could ask is if the research project that one is applying for MAY result in a publication. That's different than "if I work for you, will I get a publication in a relatively short period of time?". The first one is simply checking if the work is a research front work that could result in a publication. The latter is more "demanding", especially with the "short period of time" part, as if one can predict what can happen in a short period of time, especially in experimental work. Try working in experimental high energy physics when the Tevatron was down for that long upgrade.

Zz.

So how exactly should I go about asking the first type of question? "So Prof. X, will there be opportunity for me to be involved in a publication in this research group?", like that?

 

[Vanadium 50]

So how exactly should I go about asking the first type of question? "So Prof. X, will there be opportunity for me to be involved in a publication in this research group?", like that?

To use j93's analogy, would you say to a woman "So, will there be an opportunity for me to boink your brains out if I were to buy you dinner?" And if she slapped you, would you then go around and ask her colleagues at work?

You're missing the whole point. The reason grad school committees value undergraduate research is because of what you would presumably have learned. Publication is an additional data point indicating that you would have learned a lot. Focusing on the publication and not the work won't fool anyone - not your research supervisor and not the admissions committee.

Neither is particularly gullible.

 

[ZapperZ]

So how exactly should I go about asking the first type of question? "So Prof. X, will there be opportunity for me to be involved in a publication in this research group?", like that?

If I were an undergraduate, I would be happy to be doing ANYTHING in someone's research group, regardless of whether I get any publication out of it or not. The experience and the SKILL that I gather are more important, and something that I can write about in my graduate school application.

I mentored a couple of undergraduates doing their internship here last summer, and NONE of them got any publications out of the work. But the feedback we got from all of them showed that it was the most valuable experience they've ever had, and the fact that they got into the program will be a significant addition to their resume and grad school application.

If any of these kids would have asked me the question that you wrote, I would not have picked them.

Zz.

 

[j93]

You're missing the whole point. The reason grad school committees value undergraduate research is because of what you would presumably have learned. Publication is an additional data point indicating that you would have learned a lot. Focusing on the publication and not the work won't fool anyone - not your research supervisor and not the admissions committee.

You should focus on getting a publication but only when deciding who to pursue research with not when conducting your research or having meetings with your supervisor. Dont start every meeting with you research supervisor asking when you're going to get a paper. The whole point of the research on the professors background is to find a professor who will increase the likelihood of being in the position of publishing a paper. You can't force a publication out of a professor.
To extend the earlier analogy even when you find a girl who is easy. You shouldn't spend every single minute with her asking her when she is going to boink you. The whole point is to put yourself in a position where if you do what you would have done anyways you will have the least resistance in the path to reach your goal.

 

[j93]

If I were an undergraduate, I would be happy to be doing ANYTHING in someone's research group, regardless of whether I get any publication out of it or not. The experience and the SKILL that I gather are more important, and something that I can write about in my graduate school application.

That is great but I don't see why you can't gather the same skills and experience within a group which publishes often and with undergrads receiving author credit. By joining such a group you get the validation of your research that will give you a boost in grad admissions.
That is why I think it is practical to take the time to search for such a group.

If any of these kids would have asked me the question that you wrote, I would not have picked them.

There is no way you would know if they applied to the program to add the program to their resume.
If any of the previous forum threads are any indication a lot of undergrads pursue REU's because they believe it will aid their applications with the afterthought of conducting research in a certain subfield. Yet I doubt a single application for an REU has a personal statement asking if the REU will increase the profile of the grad school applications.

 

[ZapperZ]

That is great but I don't see why you can't gather the same skills and experience within a group which publishes often and with undergrads receiving author credit. By joining such a group you get the validation of your research that will give you a boost in grad admissions.
That is why I think it is practical to take the time to search for such a group.

The work comes first and foremost. The publication will come naturally if the work is important enough, and done right. To put more emphasis on publication FIRST, and the nature of the work second, is to have a very skewered set of priorities.

Note that I didn't say one shouldn't think about publishing. I'm saying that in the current context, that has been put as the overwhelming criteria, and that's wrong. We've already seen criticism of college professors who try to pad their publication list no matter how repetitive or obscure the work they are doing. This is the mentality of putting publishing ahead of doing good, important science. We don't need one more to go into such a pipeline.

There is no way you would know if they applied to the program to add the program to their resume.
If any of the previous forum threads are any indication a lot of undergrads pursue REU's because they believe it will aid their applications with the afterthought of conducting research in a certain subfield. Yet I doubt a single application for an REU has a personal statement asking if the REU will increase the profile of the grad school applications.

If they apply to add that they did research work to their resume, I would take it! I've even mentioned this in my "So You Want To Be A Physicist" essay as one good reason to want to do such a thing. But this means that the student WANT to do the work because this is the experience they want to write in their application or resume, and not simply to get their name on a paper. Such an experience is often a guarantee. Getting a good result and within a specific amount of time to be able to publish isn't!

Zz.

 

[j93]

The work comes first and foremost. The publication will come naturally if the work is important enough, and done right.

That is not really true for an undergrad. I gave experimental HEP as an example.

Such an experience is often a guarantee. Getting a good result and within a specific amount of time to be able to publish isn't!

That has more to do with the the program and how it aligns with the expectations of the students.

The truth of the matter is that as an undergraduate you do not have enough knowledge of the current boundaries of physics to
decide which specific topic you will research. Your research supervisor will give you a topic to pursue. This topic will be publishable or be a topic in support of topic that is publishable but will not be able to be published. Not all professors are going to distribute topics in those two groups in the same manner to undergrads therefore it is practical to choose a professor who gives undergrads the greatest amount topics in the publishable group.

 

[Count Iblis]

When you consider joining a professor's research group, how can you bring up the subject of publication in a discrete way. What's a better way than to ask the professor straight up "if I work for you, will I get a publication in a relatively short period of time?" How do you raise this question without making the professor think you care only about grad school application.

Why not simply check the Prof's list of publications? If the prof publishes more than ten papers a year with many of the research group as co-authors, you'll have a good chance
that even a minor insignificant result will be mentioned in a paper and your name may appear on such a paper (but perhaps only as a third or fourth author).

 

[Cincinnatus]

When I was an undergraduate I worked on a bunch of different research projects in the summers and during the academic year. Each time I had a different advisor and most of them did say that there was some chance of publishing... Though I didn't get a single publication out of any of those experiences.

In the end it didn't matter. I still got into top 5 graduate programs. To get into graduate school, publications aren't nearly as important as letters of recommendation. It's understood by admissions committees that most undergraduates aren't involved with anyone research project for a long enough period of time to generate a publication.

About half the first year students in my class had their name on a publication prior to entering... Most of the people with publications were not entering graduate school right after undergrad. These were people who had been technicians for a few years in between.

 

[timur]

You serious. Publications are big bonus points for grad school admissions. The OP knows this otherwise he wouldn't have asked about pubs.

I don't get your point. I mean, who would expect publications from an undergrad student who is applying for a grad program?

 

[j93]

About half the first year students in my class had their name on a publication prior to entering... Most of the people with publications were not entering graduate school right after undergrad. These were people who had been technicians for a few years in between.

I don't get your point. I mean, who would expect publications from an undergrad student who is applying for a grad program?

There a difference between something that looks good on your application and something that is expected. I think the fact that half of a graduating class being published even though only small amount of the applicants have publications are a good indicator of the value of having a publication in your application but I would like to reiterate there is a difference between something that looks good on your application and something that is expected

 

[timur]

In any case publication is not a must.

 

[ZapperZ]

That is not really true for an undergrad. I gave experimental HEP as an example.

And look in Msg 13. *I* gave experimental HEP as an example as well! It is an example where NO ONE can predict if there will be results to published in a short amount of time. So such a question that the OP is asking can be highly unreasonable.

That has more to do with the the program and how it aligns with the expectations of the students.

The truth of the matter is that as an undergraduate you do not have enough knowledge of the current boundaries of physics to
decide which specific topic you will research. Your research supervisor will give you a topic to pursue. This topic will be publishable or be a topic in support of topic that is publishable but will not be able to be published. Not all professors are going to distribute topics in those two groups in the same manner to undergrads therefore it is practical to choose a professor who gives undergrads the greatest amount topics in the publishable group.

But this is the very reason why I said way in the beginning that it is the experience and the skill that one acquires that should be the most important in seeking such undergraduate research experience, and NOT trying to get one's name on a publication. If one has, as the top priority, the need to publish, then not only does it limit the choice to those professors who are prolific, but also those who just happened to have a research project that's about to produce results. Now, how often do the stars align themselves to give one such opportunities at just the right moment? And not only that, one could have missed a wonderful research experience with more valuable skills to learn just because that research work would not have produced any kind of publication. That's pathetic!

I did many stuff while as a graduate student that never got published or were never part of my final thesis. Yet, my knowledge and skill on thin film deposition and x-ray diffraction were the main factors in the job offer that I got from Applied Materials.

I have repeatedly emphasized that one should never underestimate the importance of gaining as wide a variety of skills, especially experimental skills. One will be very surprised, come job-hunting time, that one of these can easily be the one that some employer is looking for. To put that as secondary below putting one's name on a publication, especially for an undergraduate student, is utterly silly.

Zz.

 

[j93]

And look in Msg 13. *I* gave experimental HEP as an example as well! It is an example where NO ONE can predict if there will be results to published in a short amount of time. So such a question that the OP is asking can be highly unreasonable.

That is exactly why I would not recommend experimental HEP. There are sub-fields were the likelihood of publishing are higher and pretty much all of them are more likely than experimental HEP. There was a thread a while ago with a poster angry about his name being on a paper for some data he collected with a friend. In graduate admissions research experience is the hardest thing to judge and therefore the easiest part to gain a boost in.

If one has, as the top priority, the need to publish, then not only does it limit the choice to those professors who are prolific, but also those who just happened to have a research project that's about to produce results. Now, how often do the stars align themselves to give one such opportunities at just the right moment? And not only that, one could have missed a wonderful research experience with more valuable skills to learn just because that research work would not have produced any kind of publication. That's pathetic!

I don't think were talking about the same time frame. I wouldn't suggest worrying about publication for your summer REU that is most likely too small a timeframe yet there have still been students who have worked in groups that left them in the position to publish after a summer by collaborating on the actual writing of the paper the following fall. However, I was assuming the OP was asking for advice for choosing a professor that he would work for for at least a year and ideally two. I don't think the "stars need to align" for your professor to publish every year or two. At that rate your professor would only have about 12 papers ever written.

I have repeatedly emphasized that one should never underestimate the importance of gaining as wide a variety of skills, especially experimental skills. One will be very surprised, come job-hunting time, that one of these can easily be the one that some employer is looking for. To put that as secondary below putting one's name on a publication, especially for an undergraduate student, is utterly silly.

I agree fully with you when it comes time to being a graduate student but not as an undergrad because an undergrad will not join the job market until about 6 years if he is pursuing a PhD that is why I believe it is more practical to cater to grad school admissions than the job market. I am speaking from an entirely practical viewpoint of graduate admission not life as a whole. Graduate school should allow the opportunity to pick up marketable skills for the job market.

 

[ZapperZ]

I agree fully with you when it comes time to being a graduate student but not as an undergrad because an undergrad will not join the job market until about 6 years if he is pursuing a PhD that is why I believe it is more practical to cater to grad school admissions than the job market. I am speaking from an entirely practical viewpoint of graduate admission not life as a whole. Graduate school should allow the opportunity to pick up marketable skills for the job market.

Actually, it is an undergraduate that should be more concerned about gaining such skills. An undergraduate physics degree has a more limited employability than a graduate degree. Without such experimental skills, one is limiting oneself to even less of a range of jobs IF one either chooses to not pursue graduate school, or if one cannot gain admission. These are all possibilities that one must consider, and therefore, one must cast as wide of a net as possible. So gaining research experience, more so that publishing, has unforeseen benefits for an undergraduate.

Zz.

 

[Choppy]

So how exactly should I go about asking the first type of question? "So Prof. X, will there be opportunity for me to be involved in a publication in this research group?", like that?

How about:
"So Prof. X, next fall I'll be attending a national undergraduate physics conference. Do you think there's a chance I could write up my work on this project and submit an abstract?"

 

[j93]

Actually, it is an undergraduate that should be more concerned about gaining such skills. An undergraduate physics degree has a more limited employability than a graduate degree. Without such experimental skills, one is limiting oneself to even less of a range of jobs IF one either chooses to not pursue graduate school, or if one cannot gain admission. These are all possibilities that one must consider, and therefore, one must cast as wide of a net as possible. So gaining research experience, more so that publishing, has unforeseen benefits for an undergraduate.

Zz.

We are giving advice for different people. I am giving advice for someone who wants to go to grad school and is seriously pursuing it by getting good grades and preparing for GRE's and wants to have the validated research experience that will make the difference between going to UCLA and Harvard not the difference between getting in and not. If you haven't decided to pursue graduate school and are considering joining the job market I would suggest gathering skills marketable for the job market. It is up to the OP to decide which of those groups he fits into.

 

[will.c]

I think that doing research that you aren't really interested in is exceedingly obvious - both from the fact that it will not prepare you for grad school (unless you plan to write your dissertation on things that don't interest you)... And just imagine your personal statement: "I've worked for a year in the lab of Prof. Solidstate and have my name loosely associated with two high profile publications. My intended focus at your program will be in cosmology."

That said, it's perfectly reasonable to be concerned about getting a publication - so long as that is not your only objective. But you should follow physics girl phd's advice and consider whether the professor's publication record lines up with what you're comfortable with, and not whether there's a guaranteed paper.

If you're more interested in being a competitive applicant to Harvard than learning something valuable, well you've got a rough road ahead of you. Ph.D. completion rates are quite less than 100%, and plenty of people drop out at Harvard, too.

 

[will.c]

In any case, even in the most shrewd, cynical sense - the letter of recommendation is much more important than the publication. What kind of letter will you end up with for an outstanding amount of unpublishable effort versus half-assedly running some computer simulations?

 

[j93]

"I've worked for a year in the lab of Prof. Solidstate and have my name loosely associated with two high profile publications. My intended focus at your program will be in cosmology."

From the viewpoint of an admissions committee they would view as as regular undergrad behavior. How many sophomore undergrads have decided on the area of physics they are going to complete there physics PhD in. I wouldn't expect an undergrad to that point to be exposed to research experience in all areas of physics to realize they will do condensed matter or whatever for the next 7 years of their life. I don't think physics department expect you to be that partial to a specific subfield your sophomore and junior year of undergrad.

In any case, even in the most shrewd, cynical sense - the letter of recommendation is much more important than the publication. What kind of letter will you end up with for an outstanding amount of unpublishable effort versus half-assedly running some computer simulations?

Whats with the assumption that if you work in a group that doesn't publish often you are working harder?

If you're more interested in being a competitive applicant to Harvard than learning something valuable, well you've got a rough road ahead of you. Ph.D. completion rates are quite less than 100%, and plenty of people drop out at Harvard, too.

If he gets into Harvard and doesn't graduate than oh well. I still don't think if he dropped out of Harvard it would have anything to do with the choice he makes in research opportunities as an undergrad but rather his determination to graduate. Are qualifiers/exams at Harvard really that much harder than UCLA or a school one tier below? I also doubt passing rates for qualifiers depend on the performance of others in his graduate class.

 

[will.c]

My point is simply that publication isn't nearly as important as doing quality undergraduate research even from the utility of getting into a good graduate school. If a student is published in a field where they don't intend to actually do graduate work, the admissions committee will certainly like that more than a student who did no research at all, but significantly less than a student who has experience in the field they plan to write a dissertation in.

So no, a student doesn't need to be expected to have settled on a subfield as an undergrad, but to work on something you already know doesn't interest you solely for publication potential is a disservice.

There was no assumption that someone who doesn't publish will work harder, just that someone only interested in publishing will be much more transparent than someone only interested in doing physics. And the letter of recommendation will carry much more weight than a second (or fourth) authored publication.

Now, if you're gunning to get a first authored publication, you don't really even have to ask the professor if he does publishable work - that's the kind of publication that matters to top-tier schools.