How does the classical world emerge from the quantum world?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter bremsstrahlung
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Classical Quantum
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the emergence of classical phenomena from quantum mechanics, specifically addressing why macroscopic objects like billiard balls do not exhibit quantum behaviors such as tunneling or passing through slits simultaneously. Participants explore the implications of decoherence theory and the role of coarse-grained measurements in this transition from quantum to classical worlds.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question why macroscopic objects do not exhibit quantum behaviors, suggesting that decoherence and entanglement play significant roles in distinguishing classical from quantum states.
  • One participant argues that the interpretation of photons passing through both slits is flawed, proposing that interference can occur with independent sources, thus challenging the distinction between quantum and classical worlds.
  • Another participant references the work of Brukner and Kofler, noting that while their approach addresses the emergence of classicality, it assumes certain classical features beforehand, which may limit its completeness as a solution.
  • Concerns are raised about the anthropocentric nature of noninvasive measurability in the context of macrorealism, suggesting that invasive measurements could alter the applicability of classical models.
  • There is a discussion on the role of coarse-graining in macroscopic views of quantum physics, with one participant asserting that it is not solely dependent on measurement but also on environmental resolution limits.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the sufficiency of existing theories to explain the transition from quantum to classical worlds, with no consensus reached on whether the proposed solutions fully address the underlying questions.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in current models, including assumptions made about classical features and the implications of measurement and environmental interactions on the emergence of classicality.

bremsstrahlung
Messages
14
Reaction score
2
Why do billiard balls does not pass through both the slits at once or tunnel through walls while electrons and photons do? Quantum phenomena are observed at room temperatures so how does decoherence theory account for such phenomena? I think only Caslav Brukner and Johannes Kofler have seriously addressed this question.

Classical world arising out of quantum physics under the restriction of coarse-grained measurements.

http://www2.mpq.mpg.de/~jkofler/Files/Publications/Kofler,%20Brukner%20%282007%29%20-%20A%20coarse-grained%20Schroedinger%20cat.pdf

Do classical laws arise from quantum laws?

Does this really solve the problem?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
bremsstrahlung said:
Why do billiard balls does not pass through both the slits at once or tunnel through walls while electrons and photons do?

Its because just about everything, electrons even, is entangled and decohered, usually for macro stuff, into the position basis.

The detail can't be given in a post - but the following gives the full monty:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/3540357734/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Thanks
Bill
 
Last edited by a moderator:
bremsstrahlung said:
Why do billiard balls does not pass through both the slits at once or tunnel through walls while electrons and photons do?
The idea of photon passing through both slits at once is only an interpretation of interference and I would even say that it is false as photons from independent lasers can show interference too.

So the first question is what sets "quantum world" and "classical world" apart. It seems that Kofler and Brukner are using Leggett and Garg version:
1. Macrorealism per se: A macroscopic object which has available to it two or more macroscopically distinct states is at any given time in a definite one of those states.
2. Noninvasive measurability: It is possible in principle to determine which of these states the system is in without any effect on the state itself or on the subsequent system dynamics.

While first is OK the second one is too antropocentric. And we could factor into the model invasive measurements. So I don't see that it limits applicability of classical models.

bremsstrahlung said:
Does this really solve the problem?
I don't think so. Before there was anyone who could do coarse-grained measurements there was no classical world?
 
bremsstrahlung said:
Caslav Brukner and Johannes Kofler have seriously addressed this question.

Classical world arising out of quantum physics under the restriction of coarse-grained measurements.

I looked at this paper. It is a step in the right direction. But they write on p.2, right column, end of first paragraph in the arXiv version: ''It seems thus unavoidable that certain features of classicality have to be assumed beforehand.'' Thus it is not a full solution.

But it gives an explicit example verifying that the coarse-graining inherent in all macroscopic views of quantum physics makes the world classical. This is best visible in derivations of hydromechanics (a classical theory of fluids) from quantum field theory, and is consistent with my thermal interpretation of quantum mechanics.

Note that the coarse-graining in Nature is not done by measurement (the setting chosen in the paper) but simply by the fact that nothing can be resolved by its environment to arbitrarily high precision.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: bhobba

Similar threads

  • · Replies 58 ·
2
Replies
58
Views
5K
  • · Replies 29 ·
Replies
29
Views
5K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
4K
  • · Replies 37 ·
2
Replies
37
Views
5K
  • · Replies 46 ·
2
Replies
46
Views
6K
  • · Replies 25 ·
Replies
25
Views
6K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 76 ·
3
Replies
76
Views
9K
  • · Replies 135 ·
5
Replies
135
Views
12K