How is Eq. 31 Derived in the Foldy Wouthuysen Paper?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the derivation of equation 31 from the Foldy-Wouthuysen paper, particularly focusing on the time derivative of the exponential term involving the S operator. Participants explore the mathematical intricacies and potential discrepancies in signs related to the time derivative of S.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks clarification on the derivation of equation 31, specifically regarding the time derivative of the exp(-iS) term.
  • Another participant suggests that the derivation can be found in formulas 3 and 4 of the original paper and in textbooks on quantum mechanics that discuss unitary transformations.
  • A participant questions why the time derivative of the S operator in the original paper has a positive sign, while other derivations show a negative sign, indicating confusion over the commutation relations involved.
  • One participant presents a detailed calculation attempting to derive the expression, but expresses uncertainty about the correctness of their approach.
  • Another participant critiques the initial calculation, pointing out that the assumption about the commutation of S and its time derivative is incorrect and suggests a different method for expanding the exponential.
  • A later reply indicates satisfaction with the clarification provided, but raises a question about the sign discrepancy in the original paper.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the sign of the time derivative of the S operator, indicating that there is no consensus on this aspect of the derivation. Some participants agree on the need for careful handling of commutation relations, while others remain uncertain about the implications of their calculations.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights potential limitations in the assumptions made regarding the commutation of operators and the handling of time derivatives in the context of the Foldy-Wouthuysen transformation.

kbarger
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I'm looking at the original Foldy Wouthuysen article found here http://www.physics.drexel.edu/~bob/Quantum_Papers/Foldy-Wouthuysen.pdf,
and have some question regarding eq. 31 in this paper. Would anyone be able to explain how this is derived? In particular the part with the time derivative of the exp(-iS) term. The wiki-article on FW transformation is rank with typos and also glosses over this point.
 

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It's all in the formulas 3 and 4 and in any textbook on QM which deals with unitary transformations (such as shifting between pictures: Schrödinger vs Heisenberg vs interaction (Dirac, Tomonaga, Schwinger)).
 
Why does the time derivative of the S operator in the FW original paper have a + sign while everywhere else it is derived there is a - sign? With my naive commutator skills I get what you see in the attachment. I'm looking for something a little more than "Go look in a physics book", please.
 

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Here's my naive calculation. What's wrong with this?


\begin{array}{l}
- ie^{iS} \frac{{\partial e^{ - iS} }}{{\partial t}} = - ie^{iS} \left( { - i\frac{{\partial S}}{{\partial t}}} \right)e^{ - iS} = \\
- i\left( {1 + iS - \frac{1}{2}S^2 - \frac{i}{6}S^3 + \frac{1}{{24}}S^4 + - - \cdots } \right)\left( { - i\frac{{\partial S}}{{\partial t}}} \right)\left( {1 - iS - \frac{1}{2}S^2 + \frac{i}{6}S^3 + \frac{1}{{24}}S^4 + - - \cdots } \right) = \\
- \left( {1 + iS - \frac{1}{2}S^2 - \frac{i}{6}S^3 + \frac{1}{{24}}S^4 + - - \cdots } \right)\frac{{\partial S}}{{\partial t}}\left( {1 - iS - \frac{1}{2}S^2 + \frac{i}{6}S^3 + \frac{1}{{24}}S^4 + - - \cdots } \right) = \\
- \left( {1 + iS - \frac{1}{2}S^2 - \frac{i}{6}S^3 + \frac{1}{{24}}S^4 + - - \cdots } \right)\left( {\dot S - i\dot SS - \frac{1}{2}\dot SS^2 + \frac{i}{6}\dot SS^3 + \frac{1}{{24}}\dot SS^4 + - - \cdots } \right) = \\
\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\, - \left( {\dot S - i\dot SS - \frac{1}{2}\dot SS^2 + \frac{i}{6}\dot SS^3 + \frac{1}{{24}}\dot SS^4 + - - \cdots } \right) \\
\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\, - \left( {\,\,\,\,\,\,\,iS\dot S\,\, + S\dot SS - \frac{i}{2}S\dot SS^2 - \frac{1}{6}S\dot SS^3 + \frac{i}{{24}}S\dot SS^4 + - - \cdots } \right) \\
\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\, - \left( {\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\, - \frac{1}{2}S^2 \dot S\,\, + \frac{i}{2}S^2 \dot SS + \frac{1}{4}S^2 \dot SS^2 - \frac{i}{{12}}S^2 \dot SS^3 - \frac{1}{{48}}S^2 \dot SS^4 + + - - \cdots } \right) \\
\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\, - \left( {\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\, - \frac{i}{6}S^3 \dot S\, - \frac{1}{6}S^3 \dot SS + \frac{i}{{12}}S^3 \dot SS^2 + \frac{1}{{36}}S^3 \dot SS^3 - - + + \cdots } \right) - - - \cdots = \\
\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\, - \dot S - i\left[ {S,\dot S} \right] + \frac{1}{2}\left[ {S,\left[ {S,\dot S} \right]} \right] + \frac{i}{6}\left[ {S,\left[ {S,\left[ {S,\dot S} \right]} \right]} \right] - - + + \cdots \\
\end{array}
 
Here's my naive calculation. What's wrong with this?
The first equality is wrong. The assumption is that S and ∂S/∂t do not commute. So when you calculate (∂/∂t)(e-iS), you need to expand the exponential first:
(∂/∂t)(1 - iS -½SS + ...) = -i(∂S/∂t) - ½(∂S/∂t)S - ½S(∂S/∂t) + ...
 
Thank you Bill_K. That clears that up to my great satisfaction. I now get the desired result. I'm a little curious how the original paper has the wrong sign for the S time derivative. Thanks again.

Kevin
 

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