How Is War Decided: Congress Vote or President?

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
This BTW russ, is why I like Americans, the truth 'leeks out' somewhere, almost always.

Alias, I'll see if I can find you a link, actually I know I can, but, I may just not have the time to do it today. (One hour limit on the computer)

Well, if its true (hell if its only just a popular lie) you shouldn't have any trouble coming up with a link for us.

 

[kyleb]

well that would depend on what else he needs to get done in that hour, eh russ?

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by kyleb
well that would depend on what else he needs to get done in that hour, eh russ?

If you can't find it on google in one minute it doesn't exist, kyleb.

 

[Njorl]

Ramsey Clarke convened a commission of inquiry to investigate possible war crimes committed by the US during the first gulf war. He did not indict George senior and obviously did not convict him, as he did not have the authority to do so.

He also convened a commission of inquiry to investigate the Clinton administration's handling of the Kossovo crisis. Evidently the hundreds of Serbians killed in order to save hundreds of thousands of Kossovars was an affront to Mr. Clarke's sensibilities. The proceedings had their prestige enhanced by being held at the Fashion Institute of Technology.

Mr. Clarke has long had deep feelings of guilt from his service in the Johnson administration during the Vietnam war. There were genuine war crimes of very serious nature committed by the US in that war, which it was his duty, as Attorney General, to prosecute. He did not have the nerve to do so. He has been trying to punish himself and his country since then.

Njorl

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by russ_watters
If you can't find it on google in one minute it doesn't exist, kyleb.

ahh more light into russ's twisted world view.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by kyleb
ahh more light into russ's twisted world view.

Pick any worldview you want, kyleb. It can be found through google in under a minute. Welcome to the information age: the sum total of all human knowledge is available to you in mere seconds.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Njorl
Ramsey Clarke convened a commission of inquiry to investigate possible war crimes committed by the US during the first gulf war. He did not indict George senior and obviously did not convict him, as he did not have the authority to do so.

He also convened a commission of inquiry to investigate the Clinton administration's handling of the Kossovo crisis. Evidently the hundreds of Serbians killed in order to save hundreds of thousands of Kossovars was an affront to Mr. Clarke's sensibilities. The proceedings had their prestige enhanced by being held at the Fashion Institute of Technology.

Mr. Clarke has long had deep feelings of guilt from his service in the Johnson administration during the Vietnam war. There were genuine war crimes of very serious nature committed by the US in that war, which it was his duty, as Attorney General, to prosecute. He did not have the nerve to do so. He has been trying to punish himself and his country since then.

Njorl

Ahh, thank you, Njorl, that explains a lot.

Mr. Robin Parsons, I kinda figured it. Hey, you know what, I think I'll hold a trial in my basement. Wanna come? If not, that's ok, we'll convict you in absentium (sp).

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

try this one russ http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-preface.htm"

And please, read the entire thing, all the way through, or not, your choice, but it is you who loses, not me.

(It's 'In abstentia', shows how just you truly are!)

 

[Alias]

I read just enough of the cited work to realize that you are right Mr. P.

Furthermore, Bush Jr., is probably just as evil as his father and everyone else that ever held a government office anywhere in the world throughout the history of the universe.

That being said, I would like to remind you that the US is the best equipped when it comes to monetary might. We also have the largest military and our government is always on the look out for those that might oppose us. Thanks to the Patriot Act, you are probably on their list. So my advice to you is to respect the US and stay quietly in the Great White North before you piss one of us evil bastards off. You and the rest of the world better get used to playing by our rules. Devils or Angels it doesn't matter which we are. We are the dominant Super Power and we will do as we wish. Complain at your peril. Resist at your defeat. All hail Bush. Hail Bush!

 

[BoulderHead]

Damn, that was almost perfect Alias. If I change just a few of the words (the one's in bold-face) we would be in perfect agreement;

Originally posted by Alias
I read just enough of the cited work to realize that you are right Mr. P.

Furthermore, Bush Jr., is probably just as evil as his father and everyone else that ever held a government office anywhere in the world throughout the history of the universe.

That being said, I would like to remind you that the US is the best equipped when it comes to monetary might. They also have the largest military and our government is always on the look out for those that might oppose us. Thanks to the Patriot Act, you are probably on their list. So my advice to you is to respect the US and stay quietly in the Great White North before you piss one of those evil bastards off. You and the rest of the world better get used to playing by their rules. Devils or Angels it doesn't matter which they are. They are the dominant Super Power and they will do as they wish. Complain at your peril. Resist at your defeat. All hail Bush. Hail Bush!

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by russ_watters
Pick any worldview you want, kyleb. It can be found through google in under a minute. Welcome to the information age: the sum total of all human knowledge is available to you in mere seconds.

i too wish life were so simple russ, but i have not daydreamed myself into believing it. i think google is the best of the bunch from what i have seen of search engines, but have had many occasion were i had use another engine or even resort to going to one of those old places were they keep books and stuff; you might have heard of the library before?

 

[Kerrie]

i see this topic has drifted off from the original intent of the declaration of official war...let's keep it on topic...

 

[kyleb]

well it is somewhat on topic as russ seems to think that if you can't find it on google then it is not valid reasoning for declaring official war, or anything else for that matter.


but seriously, in response to your question Kerrie; i think it has got to the point that our governments are set up good enough to were no one can make a official decollation of war unless it is truly an act of defence. so for quite a while now various factions withing governments find loopholes to express their aggressive tendances while bypassing the standard systems we have set up to avoid war.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Alias, Boulderhead, thanks for the forewarning, I already know, it is probably the reason why I am homeless and cannot get acknowledgment for what I have accomplished in this country Canada, (as I had mentioned, in the previous PF 2.0, the normal route of economic forewarning that the US Administration uses against Canada starts at softwood lumber, {they make it more expensive for Americans to buy it, hence your housing cost goes up} and shortly after I had made that statement, The Canadian official was in the papers telling us al that the talks had just ceased, as per the American's choice)

It is not unknown to me, nor is it something that I am terribly concerned with, as it is difficult to extract from someone information when they are unwilling to surrender it, so my end is still protected.

That they would punish the entire country for my sake, well that would simply show them to be what they would, at that time, clearly BE!

All Hail Bush...NOT A CHANCE!


P.S. Alias, I'm glad you stuck around, Thanks

 

[russ_watters]

[sorry Kerrie]

Kyleb, I have a rule of thumb about not doing anyone's research for them, but since you're making an issue of this, I typed "ramsey clark" into google and bam: in 0.15 second (I have cable) I had 52,000 hits. It then took ~15 seconds to decide the fourth link down looked good. Total elapsed time: ~30 seconds. Behold, the power of the internet.
[/ot]

try this one russ *HERE*

Thats really nice, Mr. Robin Parsons. My high school had a mock Deomcratic Convention before the 1992 election. We nominated Howard Stern. Strangely, the DNC didn't put him on the ballot. I'm confused as to why...

We also had a model UN. It didn't do anything either. So hey, maybe it really DID control the real UN. Hmm...

it is probably the reason why I am homeless and cannot get acknowledgment for what I have accomplished in this country Canada, (as I had mentioned, in the previous PF 2.0, the normal route of economic forewarning that the US Administration uses against Canada starts at softwood lumber, {they make it more expensive for Americans to buy it, hence your housing cost goes up} and shortly after I had made that statement, The Canadian official was in the papers telling us al that the talks had just ceased, as per the American's choice)

Now the source of your bias makes more sense, Mr. Robin Parsons. Though I think your conclusions are wrong, I can certainly understand how such a trauma would cause you to jump to them.

I have found that most people who hate the US percieve themselves to have been wronged by us. Being the big kid on the block its natural that we get blamed for EVERYTHING: Easy target.

 

[kyleb]

well i figured there was something on that case, but i have a rule of thumb about not doing anyone's research for them as well.

regardless, not all information is so easily obtained though google.

 

[Njorl]

I had a terrible time finding info on Gore brand high-speed coaxial cables. Every hit came up with Al. I would put explicitly, no president, no AL ,no Albert, no whatever. It didn't matter. Sometimes I could get stuff on Gore-tex coats.

Njorl

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Alias

That being said, I would like to remind you that the US is the best equipped when it comes to monetary might. We also have the largest military and our government is always on the look out for those that might oppose us. Thanks to the Patriot Act, you are probably on their list. So my advice to you is to respect the US and stay quietly in the Great White North before you piss one of us evil bastards off. You and the rest of the world better get used to playing by our rules. Devils or Angels it doesn't matter which we are. We are the dominant Super Power and we will do as we wish. Complain at your peril. Resist at your defeat. All hail Bush. Hail Bush!

(Insert 'tickertape'/newsroom background noise here)

This just in; NEWS OF THE DAY, THE US IS THE LAST REMAINING SUPERPOWER ON THE PLANET, FILM AT ELEVEN!

So russ, apparently you are not willing to cede to international understanding of the simplicities of law, and there representation in the international community, you would have preferred the ICJ then, or would you have preffered the War Crimes tribunal in the Hague.

But tell me russ, as an American, would you turn them in?

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
[BSo russ, apparently you are not willing to cede to international understanding of the simplicities of law, and there representation in the international community, you would have preferred the ICJ then, or would you have preffered the War Crimes tribunal in the Hague.
[/B]

There must be an internationally recognized authority (I think the War Crimes Tribunal is the only relevant one here). Your example has no more real validity than mine. By your reasoning, ANYONE can start their own court and call it a trial.

But tell me russ, as an American, would you turn them in?

Turn in WHO for WHAT? If you are asking if I would turn in Bush to a War Crimes Tribunal, its a rediculous hypothetical that I won't answer. Thats another rule of thumb of mine. Answering hypotheticals like that does nothing but create problems. I'm sure you have seen similar issues in the other forums here.

If the Earth stopped rotating, what would happen...?

If the sun stopped shinig, what would happen...?

If plant X really does hit the Earth next month...?

If you suddenly became a woman, what color lipstick would you wear?

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by russ_watters

(SNIP!) There must be an internationally recognized authority (CLIP!)

UHmmmm, if I remember it correctly, it is called the Geneva Convention, But I could be wrong russ, do a (insert name of your favourite search engine *HERE*) search, will ya?




EDIT; That is a C-o-n-s-t-r-u-c-t of 'LAW', russ. (according to the definition of 'IS')

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
UHmmmm, if I remember it correctly, it is called the Geneva Convention, But I could be wrong russ, do a (insert name of your favourite search engine *HERE*) search, will ya?

EDIT; That is a C-o-n-s-t-r-u-c-t of 'LAW', russ. (according to the definition of 'IS')

The Geneva Convention is a TREATY, a piece of paper, an inanimate object, not a seat of authority. You're confusing the law with the court. The court enforces the law, the law doesn't enforce itself. So despite what I think, OJ was found innocent. It doesn't matter that I KNOW he committed the crime. I don't have the authority to track him down and arrest him and then convict him. Only the police and the court system do.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by russ_watters
The Geneva Convention is a TREATY, a piece of paper, an inanimate object, not a seat of authority. You're confusing the law with the court. The court enforces the law, the law doesn't enforce itself. So despite what I think, OJ was found innocent. It doesn't matter that I KNOW he committed the crime. I don't have the authority to track him down and arrest him and then convict him. Only the police and the court system do.

Yes russ, and the piece of paper is/are the 'Facts of the Law' that all of the signatories of that piece, are to abide by, and are the "Legal Representational Bodies" of all of the governments that have signed it, AKA "The Authorities", just that in this particular case, it is a BODY of them, not a singularity (court) of them.

That includes your own Country russ, and mine, and the UN's Charter as well russ, let's not forget that one.

Apparently russ you don't seem to realize that the Legislators and Senators, the people's that do the representing, are also 'Members' of that "Authority" russ, even in your country russ.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Yes russ, and the piece of paper is/are the 'Facts of the Law' that all of the signatories of that piece, are to abide by, and are the "Legal Representational Bodies" of all of the governments that have signed it, AKA "The Authorities", just that in this particular case, it is a BODY of them, not a singularity (court) of them.

That includes your own Country russ, and mine, and the UN's Charter as well russ, let's not forget that one.

Apparently russ you don't seem to realize that the Legislators and Senators, the people's that do the representing, are also 'Members' of that "Authority" russ, even in your country russ.

How does ANY of that give Ramsey Clarke more authority to conduct a trial than it gives ME? (I have no authrority whatsoever to conduct a trial. I'm not a real court.)

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

So russ, you think that Ramsey Clarke, who was an Attorney General of the United States of America, is on par with you(?) for running a courtroom/trial, or that the body of persons, who sat, and listened, to all of the evidence presented, are, what russ?, "Incompetent to the job", not likely.

If he can get a conviction there russ, he could get it anywhere, most likely russ, never mind it returns to the question I had asked you once before russ, as an American would you turn him in?, the criminal(s) russ, would you turn them in?

Here in Canada russ, you can petition a court to be the prosecutor of/in a case, but you will need to pass the Judge's standards, so even you russ, if knowledgeable enough, and competent, to prove that in a court of law, could prosecute the case russ, even you!

To defend Freedom, First Defend the Law, as that is what Defends Freedom!

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
So russ, you think that Ramsey Clarke, who was an Attorney General of the United States of America, is on par with you(?)

No, I'm saying he has precisely the same amount of authority as I do: NONE WHATSOEVER.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by russ_watters
No, I'm saying he has precisely the same amount of authority as I do: NONE WHATSOEVER.

And I disagree russ, he has knowledge and experience that lends him way more authority/credibility, on the topic(s), then you will, probably, ever have!

Aside from that russ, he probably could have taken it to the War Crimes Tribunals, but what would be the point, the record of the truth of it is firmly established by his actions to date, and furthering it would simply cause the expenditure of more money, to do what russ, imprison Bush?? you figure it's likely to happen russ?

Even I am not that silly/stupid as to think that they would allow that to happen, even if it should!

Grow up russ, my tent is older then you.

He admitted that the establishing of the record was the goal russ,I agree with that, no matter what your opinion of it's validity is, it is valid, as a record, none the less!

 

[with.buddha]

this is a huge thread and i haven't read it except for the first question...

so sorry if this has been mentioned, but Congress did approove the use of force last October when the Dems cowed down to win votes -- of course it didn't work and many (all too late) switched course...

my thoughts: this war is bad and stupid, even if you think world domination would be good for the US, it is tactically illogical to "go it alone"..

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

BTW russ, the reality of life is, to me, such that, when I see a good lesson to be learned, I attempt to accredit the author of the lesson, if possible.

In that light, I tell you that it is NOT to the accreditation of A, Hitler that we learn from him, it is to the credit of God, as God is the Truth, and that is what we learn from.

Hence we learn from what Hitler did, and what we learn russ is simple enough, there are two ways to ‘Win’ at War,

Hitler demonstrated both methods, one is “Force of Occupation” the other is “Genocide”

That russ, is why the Geneva Convention, Why the UN Charter, why we do NOT start war russ, we only enter to finish them, because War is Murder russ, simple as that!

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
And I disagree russ, he has knowledge and experience that lends him way more authority/credibility, on the topic(s), then you will, probably, ever have!

I thought I had been clear, but maybe not. He certainly is better QUALIFIED than me to make an assessment. But he has no AUTHORITY do do anything.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

See russ, there is a place where we are all "Equal before the Law", it is that obvious russ, we are all SUB-serviant to it, the Law Rules everyone russ, including Civil Presidents russ, "Commanders in chief" russ.

See russ, I helped to Defend the law russ, in the World russ, I helped to defend Freedom russ, do you understand that russ??